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Question Time with our MEP, Nick Griffin

Jonathan Schofield finds Question Time disturbing, uncomfortable and totally unbalanced - but in the end worthwhile

Written by . Published on October 23rd 2009.


Question Time with our MEP, Nick Griffin

So there was one of my MEPs, Nick Griffin, on Question Time, in an ill-fitting suit, looking like an unsuccessful carpet saleman, refusing to concede that the Holocaust in its accepted form took place.

There he was mentioning ‘militant homosexuals’ (who?) and squirming when faced with views he’d previously aired such as wanting the UK to be 99% white. There was my MEP twisting to distort the truth about sharing debating space with the Ku Klux Klan, and about the true nature of a party that has been forced to change its rules about not allowing non-white members into its ranks.

There was my Euro representative laughing nervously, looking shifty, sweating and squirming as the Question Time panel and audience destroyed him. Whether it was Bonnie Greer, writer and cultural commentator, or politicians Chris Huhne, Jack Straw or Sayeeda Warsi facing up to him, it didn’t matter, he lost every time.

As Chris Huhne said, “You are the leader of a party based explicitly on race and this is unique. Yours are the politics of finding people to blame, of peddling hate and fear against minorities.”

Griffin had no response to this, and went spiralling off into nonsense, referring to the "genocide of the indigenous peoples of Britain by immigration". It was about this time he called me an aborigine. According to Griffin us aborigines are those who are descended from people who came to the UK after the last Ice Age. Because of this we deserve to be here more than others, certainly more than black and brown-skinned people.

There’s more than a whiff of David Icke about Nick Griffin. Remember Icke the ex-TV presenter turned guru who believes we’re being controlled by reptilian humanoids. He thinks up unprovable nonsense and then convinces himself it's all real.

Yet throughout the hour long airing of Question Time there was something nagging away at the brain. This wasn’t the Question Time I’ve viewed before.

This was Beat Up BNP Time with even the lead presenter, David Dimbleby, joining in. It was funny on occasion, it was instructive too, but it was savage. It looked and sounded biased and unbalanced. This probably reflects the ‘disgust’, as one of the audience put it, against the BNP, but in terms of the BBC's lofty ideals of impartiality it was ugly.

In the districts where Griffin has most support, in the estates in our own back yard in the North West, it must have seemed familiar. In neighbourhoods beset by long-term unemployment, poor education and high crime it must have seemed again, that the little Brit, the white-guy who got left behind, was being picked on by the nasties in the Establishment and the Metropolitan elite.

Of course if I’d been on that panel I don’t think I could have bottled up my anger when faced by the weird illogic of the BNP as voiced by this least charismatic of party leaders.

But Dimbleby should have handled Question Time better, should have mixed up the questions more, given us less audience opinion. The one off-topic question was about Stephen Gately and whether Daily Mail hack Jan Moir was right to jump on his still warm corpse with criticism of his gay lifestyle. It was so very off-topic, it was like someone sitting on a whoopee cushion at a public inquiry. Within two panel responses we were back on the BNP.

Nick Griffin, BNP leader, at Manchester Town Hall on Euro Election day in June: he looked as shifty on Question Time

The final question on the programme was whether the appearance of Griffin on the show had been an early Christmas present for the BNP. Some said yes, it was a fine recruiting poster for the party, validating their views by giving them exposure on such an august broadcasting vehicle. Others said no, given Griffin’s dreadful, shifty, inarticulate defence of his position, and the blanket negative coverage throughout the week, it had been a terrible few days for the BNP.

A more pertinent question was avoided, which was should the BBC have allowed Griffin on the programme at all? Well given their own rules, given Griffin has an electoral mandate from the Euro elections, given the BBC have allowed minority parties such as UKIP and the Greens on before, they could hardly not allow him on.

We return to the question of free speech.

On Channel 4 news before Question Time, Margaret Hodge, a member of the Labour Government, got it dead right.

She said: “I’ve had him (Griffin) campaigning at my constituency in Barking in the past. At polling stations he’s attacked me personally as an immigrant and as a Jew. He’s a nasty, nasty man. But we debate through democracy not through censorship in the United Kingdom, that is our tradition.”

The protesters outside the London studios and up and down the country missed this point completely. But then with their Socialist Worker placards they would do, wouldn’t they? The left and the right eventually meet as we all know, coming full circle from opposite sides. In the end if given power both the BNP and those protestors, would want to shut people up, with violence if necessary, and allow only one point of view to be given airtime; their own.

As Michael Portillo said on the This Week show after Question Time, “It almost made me physically sick this morning when I heard Ken Livingstone (left wing ex-London Mayor) saying that he didn’t want Griffin on Question Time.” Portillo went on to describe how Livingstone had wanted public debate with Marxist IRA terrorists in the seventies whilst they were murdering British citizens. More recently Livingstone has invited holocaust deniers, with no constituency in the UK, over from the Middle East to speak.

We can’t have it both ways, so let’s have it our way. The way as a nation we have stumbled towards for hundreds of years, let people, certainly once they have a constituency, have their voice.

And in this way let’s give them enough rope to hang themselves. Griffin was a shambles last night. Question Time brutally exposing his incoherent nonsense. It was humiliating for him. It’s true that in some areas his beating up might have reinforced support but most people would have seen that this comical, bewildered and confused figure is not quite the person we would want running the country. Not ever, even after the next Ice Age, when the new aborigines, or whatever, arrive.

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334 comments so far, continue the conversation, write a comment.

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela you have a different interpretation of reliable to most other folks. "A friend told me" is not classed as a reliable source.

ChrisOctober 23rd 2009.

Question time should be a debate it was a lynching, terrible show and I think a lot of people are sticking to the party line that Griffin was exposed I dont really think he was.

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Cas, you may not be supporting her views but you are helping her play the poor misunderstood victim. She should be allowed to stand or fall on her own merit, without someone coming along and effectively saying "stop picking on her". This is a public forum, and if she feels that she's being picked on rather than her opinions well that's for her to do something about. However, as yet all I've seen are people picking large holes in the indefensible and poorly argued position she holds.

adrockukOctober 23rd 2009.

Dick Griffin is so racist even his face is antisymetric.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

That's exactly what they are saying M30

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Scoteee you made your last point well, if only others could acknowledge there are issues to be dealt with!

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Dig, I just looked on LivCon, looking for a restaurant for later in the week and found this from you '..“ Boz eyed? never heard that one. Bog eyed is 2 working eyes looking outwards. Griffins eyes are worst type. One works, one occaisionally moves independantly without warning. I'm going to need more time to study this case further. For now we can refer to it as 'Crazy eyes'. ” Dig, if you can't accept people's disabilities without highlighting them, playground style, then I think your opinions and input are a bit hypocritical and worthless.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

"The only reason he doesn't get attacked is because of the police presence and his bodyguards." But hold on a minute Dig.....I thought that WE were supposed to be the "violent thugs" here? Good job he does have protection from the REAL thugs eh. You seem to be saying that because he has a point of view that differs to others that he deserves to be attacked for it??? How very fascist!

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

He was unable to answer properly because he was simply not allowed to answer properly. It is a fact that people were urged into asking "provocative" questions and it was just a blatant attack on one man and his beliefs....which he is perfectly entitled to have

AeronOctober 23rd 2009.

One question: I arrived in this green and pleasant land during the last ice age but I was abused by a polar bear and it turned me gay. I'm just wondering where I will be sent under a BNP government. Please don't send me to the Arctic, Nick. Don't be fooled by their fur colour, those bears are proper nasty! (I'm sorry if I'm trivialising this but the guy's a joke, as is his party.)

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Tom, no. I strongly disagree on some topics with people who I greatly respect. However, I have great difficulty extending respect to folks who would take away just freedoms from people and make them outcasts and pariahs.

Simon TOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela; you "don't agree" with homosexuality. What does that mean??? You also ask what the benefits of "multi-culturalism" are to Britain. I'd like to ask you what the benefits of "mono-culturalism" would be; everyone predictable and comforming, everyone looking the same and thinking the same, and living in a society that doesn't allow or tolerate difference. Sounds horrible. Give me a world where my 'white Anglo Saxon' kids hang out with black kids and Jewish kids, date Muslims, have access to foods from round the world, have a clued-up perspective on values and religion other than their own, and have a tolerance of difference that twenty or thirty years ago kids just didn't have. For them, the problems of the world aren't caused by people with different sexual preferences or foreign accents, or non-Christian religions, but people like you spreading intolerance and division.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

EL...oh I see. It's alright for them to protest is it? But I suppose you object to protests from the BNP don't you? If the BNP protest about anything they are shot down straight away and called racist and Nazi scum. How very fair. And as for the remark about the "dynacism and resolute conviction that muslims have, at a time when Christian numbers are dwindling,".....could that be because so many of our own people seem to be so against it? Not naming names........

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

See the rant above starting 'we the indigenous people' Been there done that.

hear me nowOctober 23rd 2009.

Griffin is a loser his party racist , but most of his voters are'nt , with immigration out of control , europe bleeding us dry etc the main parties need to step up to the tasks ahead , failure will mean the BNP growing rapidly in size and maybe getting there first MPs into Westminster .

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

No O, because you seem to have a hatred for white British people of which you are one.

levi rootsOctober 23rd 2009.

Com' have some of my haat reggae sauce!

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

You asked for *an* example. I provided you with an example. If that example doesn't suit you. Tough.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Good riddance Dig. O...if you think Nck Griffin has no chance you're mistaken. Alice, us being part of the EU is largely to blame for the problems we face now.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

east lancs....regarding "scumbag benefit cheats".......once again I direct you to the BNP website...click on policies and go to Housing and Welfare. I wish you would all thoroughly check them and their policies out instead of being brain washed by the media all the time.

M30October 23rd 2009.

Seen the Light: You had me nodding my head in complete agreement until your mad ramble about Jews and getting out of the EU.

helOctober 23rd 2009.

I was fairly satisfied that last night's show did what I hoped - gave him an airing so he couldn't moan he'd been censored and then showed he and his party up as loons.I was a bit disappointed they stuck so much to race based questions though, when Nicky Campbell interviewed him at the time of the Euro elections it tunred out he had crackers opinions about loads of other stuff, teasing that out would have been more interesting - after all, we all knew he was a racist and xenophobe already.As for David Dimbleby, he's the reason I don't often watch QT. Does he understand what the chair of a debate is supposed to do? He's never impartial and he always joins in - infuriating.

emma graceOctober 23rd 2009.

I thought it was horrible...it was like a public lynching rather than a debate. Very uncivilised and I think David Dimbleby could have done a lot more to control the debate. There is no question of him appearing on the show; if the BBC hadn't allowed it the repercussions and connotations would have been quite frankly, frightening. It is not for the BBC to decide who we can and cannot listen to and what information we are and aren't exposed to. So good on the BBC I say. As far as Nick Griffin is concerned, I think all he has done is made himself look like more of a racist tw@t than we all already thought he was. So I doubt that we have anything to worry about. Mr Griffin has quite embarrassingly proven that not all publicity is good publicity...

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

I think, for politics, it is wonderful Nick Griffin was on Question Time. For once, we can see what a diverse democracy we live in, whereby the ugly side can rear it's head - in this case Griffin's - but we accept that because after all, we live in a free society. If one good thing comes out the BNP being elected as our European representative it's this: I'm going to make damned sure it doesn't happen again by turning up and making my vote count. After all, voter apathy contributes more to the BNP getting in than the people that actually vote for them.

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

aww Cas Sedition is is stirring up up violent trouble between Her Majesty's subjects. Lee the legal officer of the BNP is telling the members to provoke a few race riots where the non indigenous attack the indigenous. Note the BNP is for people with Anglo Saxon and Celtish ancestors only... the aboriginals as Nick told us. The rest must go. So let the ethnic cleansing begin!The anwer please Cas?

scoteeeOctober 23rd 2009.

seen light,what a load of absolute shite! I cant belive I wasted valuable minutes digesting all that drivel.

JohnOctober 23rd 2009.

John says..“ I loathe the BNP but have little less time for the politically correct thickos that can't get it through their skulls that "free speech" means just that not "the freedom to express nothing other than the views that I subscribe to". They're every bit as fascist as the BNP ”

east lancsOctober 23rd 2009.

I can indeed see where you're coming from. But I disagree entirely that "white english" are put to the back of the queue, I mean... what queue precisely? If you saw Panorama last week, you'll have seen us English at our very worst - I don't think the BNP does anything to help this. Further, what traditions and religion (I'm intelligent enough to be agnostic so I don't care about Christianity) are being threatened? Morris Dancing? I do admit though that (if the tabloids are to believed) we're pandering to some fairly worrying aspects of Islam.

Straight StephenOctober 23rd 2009.

I found it strange how half of the audience who had previously been so (rightly) appalled by the rascism of the BNP, seemed awkwardly silent when it came to Daily Mail Gay bashing. Not for the first time I witnessed the double standards handed out when it comes to bigotry against race and sexuality. Nick Griffin was not the only person in that studio who should have spent last night looking in the mirror and having a long think!

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Are you as intellectually bereft as your (in)glorious leader Nick Griffin that you cannot look about you or do your own research into how multi-culturalism changed the UK for the better?

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

So, Angela, you are quite happy to admit in a public forum that you are a homophobe? We have all heard "I've got gay friends" trotted out far too many times from homophobes like yourself for it to be credible.

Angel MerkelOctober 23rd 2009.

May I remind you of this year's bill: £175bn divided by 60m indigenous britons equalls roughly three grand thank YOU very much. It's YOUR debt says my finance minister...

GeorgeOctober 23rd 2009.

I wish Jeremy Kylie had been on the panel

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Again, why can't any of you respect that Angela feels differently? Pathetic.

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela, was it the fact that crickiters wear whites that first atracted you to the sport?

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

"We are about giving the white British people a voice" If you think that's what the BNP is about then you've totally missed *everything* that xenophobic and homophobic Nick Griffin has publicly said.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Scoteee, some polls have shown the the BNP could gain more votes than the Lib Dems in the next election. We aren't expecting to charge straight to the top but we WILL keep climbing further and further up the ladder slowly but surely until we get there.

OOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela... ha ha ha ha ha what's going on in your head? I can imagine you sat there getting really angry about christmas cards. What a saddo. They've took our jobs, our women and now they've stolen xmas. ha ha. Don't know why anyone has bothered to argue with you. Nick Griffin for PM? ha ha only in yours and every other vile racist's dreams. Don't bother to respond to this, I won't be here, I'll be rounding up my family and friends and going back to where we belong.. or should that be where our fathers belong, or our grandfathers belong...

ClydeOctober 23rd 2009.

Spot on write-up I agree. This performance wil chase a lot of people away from the BNP. Aborigines?

Child of an immigrantOctober 23rd 2009.

I'm second generation Pakistani, living in North Manchester and though I obviously don't agree with Angela on many many things I think you do-gooders with blatantly not much idea what the situation isactually like, are making it even harder for my community. By shouting someone down when they raise an issue and by belittling the actual problems, you make people even more angry. I learnt English in just the same way most children do, it was spoke at home until I understood the difference between the two languages as my father wanted to make sure I had the best chance. I have strong links with the Asian community in Manchester but it is NOT MY WHOLE EXISTANCE and for some people it is. There are people who have been here for 30 years and don't speak English, the problem is getting worse as the community gets bigger as you can get by without speaking English. This is direspectful and I can see how it angers people. Many members of the community are incredibly insular, there is no effort whatsoever to intergrate, they are simply not interested but more interested in their own business. This may be through mistrust or culture differences but I'm quite sure it doesn't help. When the non immigrant British see a community that doesn't intergrate but runs paralell to theirs then they are going to be mistrusting as they don't understand it. My children have recently started school and what the woman above says is correct, there are many children who do not speak a word of English. This is very disrespectful by their parents, they expect the school to sort it out, but these things cost money and the other parents can see that and of course that creates resentment, and it creates embarassment for me. So please realise that immigration DOES CAUSE SOME PROBLEMS, not all immigrants are problems and not all problems are caused by immigrants but you do-gooders can actually make it worse.

AeronOctober 23rd 2009.

Okay, I admit it. I am to punctuation, spelling and grammar what Griffin is to British politics. *Hangs head in shame*

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

I think that people who are here illegally should go and I don't see what is wrong with that at all. And we simply cannot allow more and more in as we are only a very small country and anyone with an ounce of common sense would have to agree with the fact that we are over crowded.

IainOctober 23rd 2009.

What a well written article. Throughout all the biased reports in newspapers and from commentators whether it be from one side or another, no-one has really looked at it from an objective opinion quite like this article. Nick Griffin clearly has some very unsavoury political ideologies but by the same time it was a very unbalanced show. Why did the BBC entertain Griffin? To convey impartiality quite rightly. So, why then was the whole show dedicated to bashing him on pointless topics when i'd far rather hear what Jack Straw thought about the postal strike or what Chris Huhne's views were on the war in Afghanistan. A very well written article though.

"Gossip" RickyOctober 23rd 2009.

What a silly silly immature little boy he came across as. The sniggering at every question was a cloak to hide his own feeling of inadequancy as time and time again Miss Greer had to put points of contention into laymans terms for him to digest and comprehend. Bless his fat round thin lipped wonky eyed face. Only place for him to preach his filth is back in the hills. Main stream politics is to big a location for him.

Straight StephenOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela, if you seriosly think that life with your lot in power would be anything like improvement then **see previous comment**

tomegranateOctober 23rd 2009.

Hahah brilliant. It really tickles me when you see someone SO VERY NEARLY do a convincing job of not actually being a racist idiot, and then they unknowingly manage to slip in something like "Who on earth would put a jewish man as foriegn secretary and expect impartial decisions to be made?" - Brilliant! This is a perfect example of why I've got little time for BNP supporters/sympathisers - they give it their best shot at appearing to be reasonable and motivated solely by legitimate concerns about controlling immigration etc, but almost always their underlying stupidity will let them down, the mask slips and an undisguised hate belch like the above spills out.

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Jayney, we're entitled to have a debate, as are you and as you often do. If you find it boring, don't read it.

scoteeeOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela the views of the BNP both on their website and the carpet man's attempt at genocidal justification are bad enough without any need for you to worry about a few skin head remarks, belive me.

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

I may have lost that in between you calling people's views shite and talking about wanting to slam your balls in you desk drawer. I apologise, what was it you said?

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Seen the light....I applaud you

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

P.S Have a read of the following article on the BNP website : "Immigration: Labour Party Is Guilty of Breach of UN Declaration on Indigenous Peoples’ Rights" and let me know what you think.

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

It isn't respectful Tom. However Angela should just leave you all and then you'd all be left on the edge.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

JJ....so your place of work hasn't enforced this....good. But the fact is that although it may not be rife it IS still enforced in some work places which is wrong

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

It shows an increase every year if you look through past years aswell.

Begs the questionOctober 23rd 2009.

Yeah, but griffin is still a tosser.

scoteeeOctober 23rd 2009.

No Alice, they would just burn them.

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Hang on, I haven't said for one minute anyone is trying to turn us all Islamic, I think you're getting a bit giddy. The school thing IS a problem and having children it's concerning for me, are you suggesting we just ignore it?

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Where do you get that opinion from Anonymous?

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

That was said about the schools in my area. How do you want me to prove it to you?

Simon TOctober 23rd 2009.

Some practicalities. Mr Griffin says he wants Britain to return to the ethnic make-up it had in 1948 (just before the arrival of the Empire Windrush from the West Indies, which in my opinion is one of the highlights of our 20th century, but never mind). What I'm interested in is how he plans to achieve this. And I'd ask the anti-immigrant posters on here the same questions. First step is to stop all further immigration into this country, presumably; we allow Anglo Saxons only, so this would include French people, Italians, and Jewish people, they're all barred. Maybe the Irish too. Ok, so to get back to 1948 he's also going to have to send some people 'home'. But that's a problem; for the majority of non-whites in this country, Britain is their home (they were born here). So where do they go??? And who decides who goes where first (are we going to keep successful black sportsmen here until after the WorldCup?)??? And to make this 1948 vision complete, he'll have to include mixed-race people too. What about people who have a black grandparent but otherwise are 'Anglo Saxon'??? Is there like a colour chart to prove whiteness??? And if the big problem is numbers (ie. there aren't enough jobs to go round), then do we take into account the number of people leaving Britain and relocating to Spain, say??? Does that mean more people can come in, or is it not really about numbers, it's about skin colour??? You might think I'm taking this into the realms of the absurd, but it's not me that's doing that, it's the BNP with this pre-1948 aim. They're within their rights to tell us this policy but they have absolutely no practical idea how to achieve it. So what's the point of the policy???

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Tom, everyone is entitled to their opinion, unfortunately even those who disagree with you. It is one thing arguing with that opinion and quite another several people bombarding someone because they dare to differ. Give it a rest.

janeyOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela ..Oh dear .. While i agree that immigration might be out of control and the mainstream parties have done little to reduce it..the BNP are NOT the answerPutting aside their views on race as we all know what they are . They are homophobic and after reading comments from other BNP members they are not to friendly towards physically and mentally ill people saying they are a drain on resources so Angela does this remind you of anything...??anything that may have happened in the recent past...you know that war we won with the help of many POLISH , PAKISTANI, ,BENGAIL, AUSTRALIAN , yes The Nazis did nto just persecute the Jews but gay and handicapped people who even were experimented on Thgink When you vote for the BNP what if your chld turns out disabeld or gay , or falls in love with a black personBy the way a BNP leaflet we had through our door was in Helvetica..A typeface produced by two Swedish gentlemen !! Oh and by the way Nick Griffin has a Glass eye ..First invented by the Germans

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Hang on Simon T, I haven't pledged any support for Angela's views. Don't tell me what I'm playing, if you can't comprehend my above posts then seek help. I believe Google usually does it for you.

Jonathan Schofield - editorOctober 23rd 2009.

I agree. It's going round and round now. And getting silly. I'm taking the rant facility off this story. Thanks for the debate everybody.

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

We all have a duty to be tolerant but it is quite true that the authorities are scared of dealing with some sections of Muslim society for fear of being branded institutionally racist. There is too much left to the community to deal with and quite frankly they are not capable as the problem is too large, diverse and growing. It's not simply a Muslim V Christian problem as many Muslims have problems with the Islamic extremists within our society. To be clear there are Islamic extremists within our society, we have the London bombings and failed Airplane masacres to prove this. I believe this to be the tip of the iceberg, have a look at this http://www.islam4uk.com/ . There is a problem and the longer the mainstream ignores the publics concern, the more support the BNP will get. So rather than debate how he looked on QT or how incompetant Straw remains, lets deal with the issues.

DigOctober 23rd 2009.

Playground politics deserve playground humour. As for the boz eyed comments they were referring to certain photographs that made peoples eyes look funny. Yeah you're right Liverpool Wag. Back to Liverpool, where people don't take life too seriously.

tomegranateOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela the examples you cite are quite false, unless you have a reputable source for them. I suggest you stop forming your opinions from the rubbish the sensational tabloids spout if you want to be taken seriously.

Ross JohnsonOctober 23rd 2009.

Jonathan has it right wih Nick's worrying and disturbing views. he is also right in being concerned about the unbalanced nature of the show and the universal onslaught that Nick endured. Contrary to Jonathan's interpretation and, again worryingly, I did not find that Nick was weak and did not perform well under the circumstancesWhat caused more concern and Jonathan does not touch on it was the inept performance of Jack Straw, a government minister. His opening speech meandered and failed completely to get anywhere near answering the question. He was clearly exposed as being in complete denial of the legitimate concerns of anyone relating to levels of immigration and comes across as more dangerous with his blind mission of leaving the UK open to whatever levels of immigration, whatever the numbers and the impact( I won't raise the drawbridge) He was exactly the same when interviewing a woman whose child had been murdered by a dangerous criminal released early from jail as per his arrangements. His eyes glazed over and he smiled(in a similar way to Nick last night)

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

Cas, I realise it's difficult to keep up with the nonsense you post on here, but you actually instructed him not to google. As you were.

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Can we drop the gay thing as its not relevant. I just requested that rather than simply knock Angela's views and Angela that you may present an idea on how to deal with the genuine concerns she obviously has.

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

What he actually seemed was totally infatuated with Bonnie Greer.Cas, do you see yourself as both apart from 'the masses' and able to speak for them?

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

I'm neither nasty or stupid thankyou Straight Stephen. Just not as blind as the rest of you are as to what's happening to this country.

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

absolutely.

GollumOctober 23rd 2009.

What does an unsuccessful carpet salesman actually look like then? I would've thought they'd be difficult to pick out in a line-up, or even a lino!?Nice piece though - some very (a)cute points.

OOctober 23rd 2009.

"Angela, you're a dick.” - is spot on - no point arguing with a BNP supporting bigot. She probably thinks there's too many black keys on a piano. Janey - if people are coming across as jobless weirdos, it's probably because a black man took their job, you know that old chestnut. So if you vote for the BNP, Griffin will chuck all the foreigners out and all the lazy, no mark, non working, benefit cheating, greggs pasty eating, Jeremy Kyle guest looking, white indeginous British will all suddenly take on the jobs that they've left behind. I think not. (I'm white by the way before anyone starts).

ELOctober 23rd 2009.

okay but whats that got to do with political correctness at xmas?

I'm sorry but...October 23rd 2009.

What the FOOK is Angela on about now? "considering how much it costs us to keep them and their families here for the rest of their lives" << what? huh? You're saying EVERY non-white family costs "us" £££ each year? What? Huh? How? Man you're stupid.

ELOctober 23rd 2009.

The Griffin Fights Back: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8322322.stm

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Alice, Your comment..."No-one has the right to force religion/lifestyle on others." This takes me back yet again to the way in which we ARE having religion and lifestyles from other cultures forced upon us. What do you think about the march that's taking place in London next Saturday that is demanding Sharia Law in this country and ultimately for Britain to become an Islamic state? And tomegranate, same question to you? Yes, to be hopeful is wonderful but I'm afraid you will be disappointed in the end.

east lancsOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela, so in a minority of places, some well-meaning or simply misinformed folk are being a bit over zealous with the ol' political correctness?

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

east lancs, I appreciate your comment. I do not class non-whites as inferior in the slightest. I believe we all play an important part in this world. But what I object to is the way in which the white English people are constantly put to the back of the queue and how we are having our traditions, religion etc stamped on so as not to offend foreigners. It is absurd! Can't you see where I'm coming from?

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Alice, I made my views clear, there needs to be full open debate started by the politicians. It should be the country that decides what to do, we're a democracy. If you can't understand what I've said then either I haven't been as clear as I think or you're just a bit ignorant. Anyway what on Earth does IRO mean?

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

O, Wow. You really do have self esteem issues don't you.

tomegranateOctober 23rd 2009.

Your point doesn't make any sense. We're not having anyone's culture forced on us. You're free to do as you like. Unless I've missed a flyer from the council, we're not required by law to be able to recite the Koran. Conservative Muslims demanding the UK become a Islamic state (if that is even what the protest is about?) does not mean it is ever going to happen, so your question is meaningless.

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

Until the 'bigger' parties actually wake up and address some of the issues that are driving people towards the BNP then they will continue to thrive. Jack Straw was a joke, as was Chris Hulme. Thankfully Baroness Warsi and Bonnie Greer treated Nick Griffin perfectly making him look exactly what he is, an unintelligent bigot. Unfortunately Straw and Hulme were drawn into pathetic, 'my dads bigger than yours' style arguments. Oh for Tony Benn to have been sat on that panel. Griffin would be in therapy now

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

Woefully chaired by David Dimbleby and turned into a witch hunt and a lynching mob for Nick Griffin including from the chair himself. I don't agree with much of what Nick Griffin stands for but nor do I dismiss him in the way everyone else seems to do. Here is a man Oxford educated who actually raises some yes uncomfortable issues which we all have to face. Personanlly I think the programme raised more questions that it answered - and hit a nerve in most people that they find uncomfortable but really do need to address. As for Jack Straw - why all the support? Again on a personal level I thought he was appalling and waffled, sat on fence. Justice secretary? Not come May 2010.

M30October 23rd 2009.

O: I just feel that our resources are overstretched as it is, and our priorities have to be with British citizens. Are you saying we should just open up our borders and let everyone come?

scoteeeOctober 23rd 2009.

You have all entertained me, I am now going home,good night :@)

scoteeeOctober 23rd 2009.

What is the difference between the actual truth and the truth and an actual fact and a fact? can we not just say in-fact? Everywhere I go I hear people saying,"in actual fact".

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Anon, I realise you're thick and I'm making allowances for that. I also realise you're spineless and post under anon when it gets a bit tricky but I know what I said and anyone who is interested can scroll back up to ManCon circa 1984 to check. I believe, and that means it's an opinion anon, that he forms a lot of his opinions to suit - via Google. Now are you going to debate or just come in with your incredibly helpful anonymous little tit bits?

ChickOctober 23rd 2009.

I've read this thread with interest today and so far avoided commenting. It's interesting to see both sides of the argument. Two things however; this country (England) is the third most populated country in the world, people per square km that is. Secondly, I have no wish to sound contentious, but you cannot force people to like each other; there always has been, and always will be, a proportion of society who will dislike a person simply because of their race, colour, religious beliefs or sexuality.

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

Dig, you're an idiot and not helping your cause. Grow up.

AnthonyOctober 23rd 2009.

My local theatre cannot raise funds and is shutting. All of my local pubs have shut down. The furniture shop went under the other day and i expect many other local businesses will face the same fate. On the plus side, the council built lots of new houses for immigrants and even gave them a Pakistan community centre. I might be crazy, but they might even build a community centre for everyone one day. When, as a society, we allow Muslim women to be degraded and murdered, but, we pick on a white guy, because it is socially acceptable we are in trouble. Oh well, we can continue to give under 16 year olds free condoms to help the Africans who come to this country with HIV. No one will ever resolve the problems while every topic is racist, except bashing the BNP. At least I can sleep well at night knowing France are not racist for giving immigrants no rights at all.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

On the contrary. I love music. I'm just saying that art and music aren't really what I had in mind when I asked for a benefit....was thinking along the lines of something more important but obviously I was right in my view that there isn't one.

Simon TOctober 23rd 2009.

I'm white and English. Griffin??? Not in my name. No-one's ganging up on Angela; but you and Cas seem to want to play the victim card, just like Griffin has started doing. You can't start posting on a public forum and not expect people to pick up the debate.

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

JaneyBabey, I'll comment on what I like, when I like - just like you do. I have a life, quite a good one. However not having to do much at my desk, well I have more time than most. However I also think this thread should be closed as no-one is actually discussing anything.

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

on BNP helping people to leave Britian: The Observer reported this morning Lee Barnes the BNP's Legal Officer, used his personal website to suggest that "perhaps there needs to be a few 'white riots' around the country a la the Brixton riots of the 1980s before the idiot white liberal middle class and their ethnic middle-class fellow travellers wake up". Will Angela be following up this call to arms?

DigOctober 23rd 2009.

You must be the most boring person in the world Cas. People can't be serious AND juvenile? You're either a hypocrite or a monumental bore. So far I know what category I'd put you in.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

There's plenty of data on this from schools themselves.

OOctober 23rd 2009.

Only other scousers think scousers are funny

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

I think we are in very grave danger of of becoming an Islamic state as long as we have people who are so obviously anti-British and anti-Christian about. And how can you talk about mutual respect and tolerance when some parts of the country don't allow Christmas decorations to be put up and some try to change it to "Winterfest" in case of offence to the so-called minorities while they seem to be promoting the celebration of all other faiths festivals???

EddieOctober 23rd 2009.

Total farce, too many opportunities for constructive discussion lost. As said already, not much more than an orchestrated public lynching!

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Even that quote doesn't back up your claim of 90% foreign.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

"Secede from the EU? Total ban on immigration from non-EU contries? Repatriation of known illegal immigrants." This would be a good thing to start with and then we can look into immigration again once we've got control of it properly.

tomegranateOctober 23rd 2009.

Even if that were true, what is worse? - wanting to 'stamp down' on people because you disagree with them, or because of their sexuality, the colour of their skin they were born with, or their private beliefs? I'm genuinely asking. I think the question shows how misguided the idea that anti-BNP protests are 'fascist' is.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

I don't have any credit cards to pay off thankyou. So that was a pointless comment wasn't it. I shall store it with the rest of them.

JayneyBabyOctober 23rd 2009.

Editor, this rant is getting very boring, can you not get it on another area? It makes it look as if you only have five readers who have no jobs and weird views.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Nice to know you think of it all as one big joke O. Churches being turned into mosques isn't in the slightest bit amusing to me. Why don't you convert to Islam? If you haven't already. Oh and the skin head remark...oh dear. Such a media inspired view you have of us.

scoteeeOctober 23rd 2009.

bloody hell you lot are worse than me for ranting all day! All the BNP are doing is filling the void created by the governments wishy washy approach to immigration in our request for a balanced and fairer community. Until a real party steps in and supports the concenrs of the majority on immigration then these idiots will continue to air their antiquated ignorance. I am done with argiung about it. The BNP will never get in in a thousand Sunday's. Calm down dears they're just a commercial!” is that the same thing cas?

Seen the LightOctober 23rd 2009.

Blimey im exhaused reading all this tittle tattle, but im actually with Angela all the way on this as she puts forward a non inflammatory, intelligent argument. Question Time was typically biased lefty liberal BBC viewing as i expected , Nick Griffin was publicly lynched and it was uncomfortable to watch. He couldv'e been more eloquent and had a chance to put across a better argument, but sadly he was shouted down far too much, largely Dimbleby's fault. He should have remained impartial throughout. Set in "safe" London it was biased from the start, and didn't wholly represent the true make up of Great Britain i felt. One in four people in London is foreign/ethnic minority. So technically 20% of our population is then foreign/ethnic minority?? Not the 10% then which is what the government is putting out?! Why wasn't Birmingham chosed as a venue? Why wasn't there a more balanced right/left wing audience? I can understand why Angela is frustrated as Manchester is becoming a collection of ghettos. Areas are being flooded with Africans/Asians/Others at an alarming pace (esp Moston) thus not allowing natural integration to take place and yet local people are not told why!and yet our taxes are funding this. We need to get out of Europe its costing us millions each day and we seem to get a lot less out of it. We simply have more people and less resources its ludicrous! We are being remotely controlled by europeans who are dictating what we can/can't say and do and the british take it lying down! The government can't even state who is entering/leaving the country yet they allow anyone who wants to come here settle! That to me is naive and dangerous even from an infrastructure/planning perspective. Who on earth has been voting for these morons? Jack Straw was pathetic when asked about this, sidestepping the issue each time. Who on earth would put a jewish man as foriegn secretary and expect impartial decisions to be made? and then its Milliband (another jewish man!) whats the agenda here i wonder? next thing we're waging war in Iraq. Divide and Rule is at play here yet again, let the immigration spiral out of control whilst we bicker amongst ourselves, meanwhile, the greedy bankers get away with blue murder virtually bringing the economy to its knees! Then we have the expenses scandal! Clever distraction techniques eh? The country is screwed and we need drastic measures for drastic times if want to save Great Britain and its traditions. Why shouldn't this country remain christian? How dare people call us racist for suggesting this! Sharia Law could be soon a part of our society, we already have Lord Ahmed and Baroness Warsi in the establishment so is it a matter of time i wonder............makes you think of the bigger picture certainly.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

I do. I have been told from people I know who have been caught up in it and before you ask...no, they are not from the BNP.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Understandable violence? Tut tut. Bye Dig

ADOctober 23rd 2009.

Seen the light your views are discusting. Your suggestion that government ministers with jewish backgrounds are simply furthering their own interests, or jewish interests against the better needs of the indiginous christian majority in the country could be taken straight from the pages of Mein Kampf. you should be ashamed of yourself.

tomegranateOctober 23rd 2009.

That doesn't back up either of your points. Try again.

I don't agree with I don't agree with AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Actually, I think she's rather avoided the questions I've put to her, and espoused gutter press hysteria as fact.

scoteeeOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela,the Lib dems wont make it either and the BNP are far from the dizzy heights of the top three. Polls mean two things, nothing and nowt!

ADOctober 23rd 2009.

so some imigrants dont learn english or teach it to their children. Its poor on their part but its not a threat to the nation is it? and its not all part of some plot to turn us all islamic, because of all of the evidence above shows its an issue for imigrants of all religous and cultural backgrounds. I think some people have this a little out of proportion.

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela is right. It is a serious and dangerous matter. But will she be joining Nick is 'persuading' the 'non- indigenous' to leave generous grants or not. Do tell us.If the BNP continues to gain support that is what she will be asked to do... at least carry the banner saying 'go home you d..... b..... while someone lights the blue touch paper. I know where I stand.

ChrisOctober 23rd 2009.

O - my point was that in work this morning a lot of people commented that Griffin had their sympathy because he was constantly attacked and that QT should be about debate, I never said he came across well did I?. By the way Jack Straw was a joke

stretfordpotterOctober 23rd 2009.

Get a new proof reader! 'the true nature of a party which has being forced to change its rules about not allowing white members in its ranks. 'EDITORIAL: well spotted, now changed, writing under pressure eh?

daveOctober 23rd 2009.

No suprise to see griffin supports israel like most racists.

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Cas, unlike you, I'm not going to sink to ad-hominem comments. But you really haven't said what *you'd* do, you said what you want others to do, namely politicians. No matter how you try to spin it, wanting politicians to start an open debate is not addressing what you feel needs doing. So, what do you want to do about immigration? Secede from the EU? Total ban on immigration from non-EU contries? Repatriation of known illegal immigrants?

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

I'm sorry but...No, I am not saying that at all. What I AM saying though is that our system is being abused to the max from a lot of foreigners and their families and that is proven.

RachelOctober 23rd 2009.

Certainly the BBC were corect to have NG on and true that the protesters are in the wrong - by trying to stop free speech they become almost as bad as the BNP its far right and far left coming full cirlce to meet in the middle!I think it's a good thing he was on to have his views and policies exposed for what they really are, he couldn't defend himself against his own opinions and quotes and following that only people who are inherently ignorant nasty little Nazis would want to vote for such a party.Fascinating that anyone can actually believe there to be an indigenous race that has been here for 17000 years - what history books has this man read???Do we suppose he's fluent in Gaelic then?

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Not half as ignorant as you all seem to be I'm afraid

MissBoobyOctober 23rd 2009.

And before anybody comments, I think it was right of the BBC to give the party airtime. Just may have backfired on to them though...

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Haha. Very clever Graham. And everyone else...as I said before...I am not saying that there won't be unacceptable comments sometimes made by a handful of people but to judge the whole party on these is wrong. Alice, I have gay/lesbian friends and neighbours who I get on with very well but at the same time I cannot say that I agree with it. But that is just my opinion and I am just as entitled to that opinion as you are to yours.

JJOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela, I previously asked, ‘Just what do people mean when they say that immigrants should 'accept our culture?’ You answered that the first point would be language, which I accept, though I don’t accept your interpretation of the figures. But when I asked what other aspects of our culture immigrants should accept you merely stated that freedom and democracy are under threat from other cultures. We’ve only evidence that a tiny minority threaten these. Otherwise you seem to have fallen into a circular argument. I believe the biggest threat to our freedom and democracy comes from the BNP.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Is that it?!?! How exactly is the Notting Hill Carnival a benefit to the British people? And can you please tell me what the benefits of diversification in art and music are please? If art and music is the most obvious way in which we have benefited from multi-culturalism then it's worse than I thought it was.

EileenDoverOctober 23rd 2009.

Nutcase love... luv is spelt love..

harryf200October 23rd 2009.

The aboriginal Brits - I wonder just how far back the BNP would define this? 100 years? 200? 2000? How would he define the 400 year old population of black people in Cardiff and Liverpool (and Bristol?) and the similar aged Arab Muslim community in Newcastle? Are they also to be considered foreign immigrants? I think not! Indeed, I'll bet they have more of an England base of family roots than quite a few of his white supremacist BNP followers.

Straight StephenOctober 23rd 2009.

The BNP are indeed a joke, just not a very funny one. They are supported by nasty individuals and stupid ones. Take your pick.

ELOctober 23rd 2009.

Anthony, sorry mate but that's the kind of flawed logic which only serves to fuel hatred; the closure of your local theatre, pub, and furniture shop is entirely unrelated to the opening of a COMMUNITY centre. I do actually agree that Griffin does address some uncomfortable - yet important - issues, but his motives are entirely repugnent to anyone with a brain.

RachelOctober 23rd 2009.

well said - Bonnie Greer for PM, anyone?

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

I don't agree with Angela's views but she is entitled to them, so give it up or I'll get the UAF on you. Oh wait a minute they don't actually know what they stand for either?! Seriously though, she IS entitled to those views so give it a rest.

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Cas: you want a political monograph in a few sentences? I may write something on the morrow. Oh, and I'm unashamedly bi and out.

AlfieOctober 23rd 2009.

Alfie says..“ As much as I hated the hideous little bigoted gargoyle Griffin.. When asked about the Gately/Sunday Mail debate one of the few none immigration questions ..It became apparent that Sayeeda Warsi was a campaigner against gay marriage and thus a homophobe!! ”

east lancsOctober 23rd 2009.

But he DID come across badly Angela. He was unable to formulate any decent answers, and resorted to grinning and laughing in the face of the onslaught. I just wish proper subjects had been addressed, that would've decreased support for his pathetic organisation of insular morons.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

I find it amazing that you yourself have not come across at least one person who has worked for a company that has told staff it is offensive to put up Christmas decorations for fear of offense to others. All I can take from this is that you must live in an area that isn't very multi-cultural and this would explain your attitude towards my opinions as you obviously have not had the pleasure of experiencing REAL multi-culturalism. Lucky you.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

EL...visit islam4uk.com It is not from the media that we get this opinion.

ELOctober 23rd 2009.

Sorry mate, but a good politician, with intellect and reason backing their views, would've shot down the attacks. Maggie for example, she'd have thrived in that arena.

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Ah, Cas, so your ideas for dealing with it are "politicians should do something". Also, stop telling me what I think, because *you* don't know what I think, and nowhere here have I commented IRO my thoughts as to where the support for the BNP is coming from.

OOctober 23rd 2009.

M30, if you are concerned with health problems within society, look no further than the millions of pounds of tax payers money spent on the white 'indeginous' people that drain the NHS from boozing, smoking and clogging up their artieries by eating too much egg and chips for tea. You sound like a Nazi making a scapegoat out of a jew in hard times.

Simon TOctober 23rd 2009.

There are some lovely churches and cathedrals in Pakistan. I recommend you visit the Cathedral of Sts. Peter and Paul in Faisalabad, for example; it's very much part of the local community and has strong links with the local mosque.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

I know you're not Dig. That message wasn't meant for you Liverpool Wag. And as regards to football-I don't follow it-I follow cricket. Couldn't care less what happened.

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Alice, I've had many debates on here and don't often agree with people, especially M30! However your incoherent ramblings are getting increasingly desperate and stupid. Earlier you said "I think it only fair that you also state what you think politicians should be doing", so I answered that they need to be honest, listen to what people think and start the debate. You then say, after I've answered this for you, "You really haven't said what *you'd* do, you said what you want others to do, namely politicians. No matter how you try to spin it, wanting politicians to start an open debate is not addressing what you feel needs doing.". See what you did there? Totally changed the question?! Alice, I think it's clear from my posts, to anyone but you, that I think the Government needs to listen to the people and let democracy decide what to do, the reason people are so upset is that they feel they are not being listened to - so they turn to radical parties like the BNP. I don't think most BNP supporters really agree with everything the BNP says, they just want someone to address their fears.

ELOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela, I think you cannot see the truth... or choose not to see the truth. I think the truth is that we live in a secular, democratic society, and that if somebody wants to have a bit of a protest then go for it. I further believe the "truth" to be that it's ISLAM which people fear, I think people are threatened by the dynacism and resolute conviction that muslims have, at a time when Christian numbers are dwindling.

tomegranateOctober 23rd 2009.

Do you have a reputable source for any of the things you mentioned above? Specifically regarding Christmas decorations and Winterval?

tomegranateOctober 23rd 2009.

If Angela doesn't like being 'bombarded' she's free to stop replying. Likewise, you're free to stop following the discussion! How can you possibly have a problem with a bit of respectful debate?

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

I'm afraid Alice that if I wish to disagree with it I am perfectly entitled to disagree with it. And it wasn't a "tactic." I was simply stating a fact.

scoteeeOctober 23rd 2009.

In-fact on reflection, it would have been more productive to have slammed my balls in the top draw of the pedestal next to my computer desk...

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

www.dcsf.gov.uk/…/index.shtml… Go to download formats and click on PDF...page 2

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Yes Alice, I am well aware of that. My comments on here started regarding the article on Nick Griffin's performance on Question Time though which led to discussing the BNP and their views obviously. But of course one cannot ignore the financial mess we are in too. I am not saying that the only problem facing this country is immigration. Far from it. We have lots of problems due to a deceitful and greedy government. Which is why I can't wait for change.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Not ALL people want to kill him Dig. And that's not very nice is it...."the people" wanting to kill him!!! Is that really how people who are against the BNP think? And you think we're scary?!?!

Wait for the Backlash ....October 23rd 2009.

I last looked at this site on Friday afternoon .. I am stunned at the amount of comments!! I agree with "seen the light" and understand Angela and Cas' views. Unfortunately there will always be a split opinion .. each believe the other is correct. Basically, I believe they should tighten up our borders .. and if people want to move to our country then they should accept our culture as we do in theirs .. its as simple as that! If you read back through the comments then this seems to be the views held by many, albeit Angela and Cas are being shouted down by others that have not fully appreciated their views! I'm not for kicking anyone out, but if you want to move here then you should accept the British way. Simple as that!

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

I think they should put Google down, appreciate not everything agrees with them and look at the hypocrisy of what they're doing. But they won't, they'll carry on all night.......

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Alice, It isn't a separate issue though.

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Tom, don't talk rubbish at me mate. You have ganged up like a pack of wolves with the less sharp ones trying to pick the bones at the end. Again, give it a rest and go and have a beer, I am.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Ah not much different from now then Alice

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

surely Cambridge educated Griffin is one of the so called 'elite'He's hardly the man of the people he likes to pretend he is...

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Gone all anon have we Simon T? You couldn't understand one of first arguments, I instructed you to Google it as that's what you usually do, not sure how that is shouting anyone down. Yes I used Google to find an acutal statement, not to form my opinion for me.

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela: What "sounds fair enough"?

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Cas "the less sharp ones" that'd be the ones defending the indefensible stance of the BNP then.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Ok, so you wouldn't object then. But if that happened and Pakistan turned round and said "No way" which they would, would you call them racist?

Angela MerkelOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela, pay off your credit card and stop moaning!

RobajobOctober 23rd 2009.

Oh yes, and Nick was kind enough to explain to Bonnie Greer about the non-violent nature of the KKK - which you would think, as a historian, she would have bothered to look up before she spoke. Where were you all when he was doing these kind things - just moaning over the odd thing he said that's where.He actually seemed like a right laugh - always smiling and clapping. Vote Griffin!

The Whalley RangerOctober 23rd 2009.

Let's all calm down and not worry too much. The BNP are never 'going to run the country'. They are simply not up for it. The real question is: how embedded is institutionalised racism in our society? How many black people work in the construction industry? How many Chinese councillors do we have in Manchester? There are 'issues', lets face them...

ADOctober 23rd 2009.

I wonder how much worse the recession would have been if labour costs had been higher due to imigration having been banned 10 years ago - inflation would have been worse, intrest rates much higher, more businesses closed, higher unemployment... perhaps imigrants (legal and otherwise) make all our lives better by holding down wage inflation?

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

I apologise if I have missed answering any questions.....I have been trying my best....I am only one person and I have been dealing with questions from many people.

rosieOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela, you're a dick.

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

All I can say Angela is that if you cannot see how diversification of art and music benefits and enriches everyone you must really walk around with eyes, ears and more importantly mind closed.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Hmmm...I think that all went rather well :)

JayneyBabyOctober 23rd 2009.

I don't believe it; I have just come back on after eighteen hours and you are still here Cas dribbling on. GET A LIFE. for godsake getalife. Editor, do us all a favour and close this thread. please, please please.

GrahamOctober 23rd 2009.

"Angela"?. If i'm not mistaken that name derives from Greek or Latin. Get the hell out of my country!

OOctober 23rd 2009.

that doesn't even make sense. I've got self esteem issues because I think the BNP and their followers are racist morons? I must have then, yes.

east lancsOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela, which schools are they then? We'd be interested in seeing the data on this as that's a very worrying situation. It's simply not acceptable that kids are missing out on an education due to poor language skills.

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Alice, the first thing politicians need to do is admit there is a problem and be open about it and allow the public to be open about their fears. I made that clear, I apologise if I made it hard to comprehend. My 'rant' against an employee was to show what is actually happening and causing frictions in Britain right now. If you think that the BNP are not getting votes because or radical Islam, you are deluded Alice.

east lancsOctober 23rd 2009.

We are in no danger whatosever of adopting Sharia law. It will not happen. Furthermore, we will not be losing Christmas, nor Easter. We will not become an Islamic state. Britain is only nominally a christian country, and only by tradition. We're a secular nation, and THAT is something to be proud of. We should have mutual respect and tolerance, but alas religion has become militantly politicised.

alexOctober 23rd 2009.

Jonathan's point that this was a QT like no other with its complete lack of 'normal' debate (education, health, environment..) was inevitable in this 'sensationalist' instance. Further exposing their one-sided agenda requires giving them more airtime tho ..... a scary thought.

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

Cas, I realise it's difficult to keep up with the nonsense you post on here, but you actually instructed him not to google. As you were.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Oh right. So you think that we should build over every last bit of "that green stuff" do you?? Yeah, because that would be really good for us wouldn't it! We need to keep this country "a green and pleasant land."

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Alice, I think what we have to remember when looking at these things is that we live in a democracy and, although we cannot have mob rule, the views of the public need to be taken into consideration. I don't think I would be wrong in saying that if a referendum was carried out that asked if we should do everything we can to decrease immigration then the answer would be a strong YES. Probably the same could be said for a 'should we pull out of Europe' referendum which is precisely why we were not allowed to vote on the constitutional shift. However the leading political establishment needs to address the views of many and address those without telling us how we should think. The arguments need to take place in the open and people need to be able to have opinions without being branded racist. With regards to EU immigration, other countries have handled it better, our Government grossly underestimated the numbers that would be coming in and I believe this was accidently-on-purpose, which only created more mistrust in the immigration system and therefore immigrants unfortunately. This is the first thing that could be dealt with and we could be told the actual truth regarding numbers etc. The Government also, whilst taking the economic benefits in terms of tax etc, left many local councils to deal with massive new communities of immigrants without required extra funding and this led to over demands on services to the harm of the established local people. Illegal immigration needs to be dealt with very very toughly, people traffickers are deplorable but they are servicing a demand. We need to make Britain less appealing to illegals immigrants as it's still the case that someone can enter the EU and still risk their life to get to Britain, we must ask ourselves why? What do we offer that is so much better than France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc etc? Once we understand this and make it less appealing we need to publicise that greatly. However Alice, I think you totally miss what the general public are most concerned about that is driving them to the BNP and EDL, that is radical Islam and the growing tension within this country that relates to that. The pc crowd have pushed the lines too far and we need to remember that this is Britain and although we welcome immigrants and their future generations we expect them to intergrate into our way of life where possible and respect our country. I run a company and we've recently had to start making employees aware, at interview stage, that in the office we occasionally give prizes out to staff such as Champagne and wine and if this would offend them then perhaps it's not the job for them. We also let them know that we may have company functions where they all go to a restaurant and we cannot always check if they serve appropriate food or not. This directly came from an incident where a young lady who had been simply told off for a minor issue by her supervisor, then made a complaint that he was racist. This complaint was dropped without grounds, as was an earlier complaint she made against someone else that arose in exact circumstances. The young lady also made a formal complaint about us giving staff bottles of Champagne and having paid for them to eat at a well known non halal Brazilian in Manchester as this did not respect her religious beliefs. I spoke to my solicitor who told us not to worry but it may be best to let potential staff know these things at interview stage. This isn't radical Islam of course, I'd call it convenient Islam - used to gain an advantage when it suits or as a warning shot in case you dare think to fire her. Alice, these kind of things happen every day up and down our country and people are getting sick of it, the laws and guidelines have become too weighted in favour of the minority and anyone who speaks out is branded racist. At primary schools local to us, there are children who start at 5 and don't speak English nor understand and vital funds are being used to deal with these issues. If a school has to spend an extra 40k a year on translation support and language tuition that they didn't spend before, then this comes from somewhere and money can only be spent once. Someone sending their child to school without even the utter basics of English is disrespectful, and these things again happen every day in Britain. There are problems that need addressing and until we start to do that, the BNP and EDL will keep welcoming new members.

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

Why has nobody mentioned Dimbleby's tie? There's no way he would have gotten away with that on any other show.

RobOctober 23rd 2009.

The aborigine comment is the one that got to me the most. Seriously is he that pig-ignorant of his own nation's history that he isn't aware of the constant waves of immigration from europe since the bronze and iron ages? He himself uses the term "anglo-saxon". What a prat.

Racist JohnOctober 23rd 2009.

It's the polish we should watch out for, bloody whites, coming to our country and just blending in.

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Ok,Cas you want to put me on the spot. You've not put *your* view as to what should be done up for scrutiny other than "politicians should be doing something".So, I think it only fair that you also state what you think politicians should be doing.

M30October 23rd 2009.

east lancs: That's all very well and good, but I feel that that's the exception rather than the rule. Yes, I agree that there's a white benefits underclass which has mushroomed over the past twenty years, and needs to be addressed firmly with an emphasis on punishment and making an example of those who take the piss (Lizzie Bardsley etc) That's a different issue to someone bringing back a new spouse, and both sets of Grandparents from Bangladesh. These are people who should be told "on your bike" when they land at Manchester Airport with their hands out.

gordonisamoronOctober 23rd 2009.

I agree with east lancs. QT should be about discussing politics and seeing where the parties stand on issues. Had that format been stuck to it would have been apparent that the BNP have no idea on all but one topic - race.

scoteeeOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela, on a scale of 1-10 how ignorant are you, really?

MissBoobyOctober 23rd 2009.

As an British Asian, I abhore the BNP and whatever the hell it is they think they stand for. However, I'm uncomfortable about this whole thing.The best thing anybody can do is give these bigots enough rope to hang themselves with and I think that was the plan for the BBC. By forcing Griffin into a panel of Jewish, African American and Asian peers you could see he couldn't hold his own against an educated and logical argument, particularly when he has been peddling all the ethnics as a bunch of house and job stealing morons to morons who believe what he says.My worry would be though is the type of person who votes for the BNP does so because they believe that they have no other option, they feel like they are being persecuted by 'foreginers' on their own soil. The lynching that took place that could possibly only exacerbate these thoughts which could possibly strengthen his support for people who think his voice (stupid and blubbery and full of shite as it is) wasn't heard due to the lack of actual political debate that went on. ....Let's hope that my lack of faith in society doesn;t hold any kind of bearing...

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Seditious eh? What a word. Now if someone would like to explain wtf it means then I'll answer.

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Actually the biggest threat to freedom is the shower in power. They have passed more laws limiting individual freedoms than any other government in history, and all done under the jingoistic stance of "The War on Terrorism".

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

There are many things but one obvious one, if you keep you eyes and ears open is the diversification in art and music. I suppose a specific example is the Notting Hill Carnival.

NutcaseOctober 23rd 2009.

Eileen, luv - maybe your friends and family are too scared to tell you but you need therapy.... and punctuation,,, training...

emma graceOctober 23rd 2009.

I think whether you agree with him or not, or are annoyed that he was allowed on the show or not, the overall result is that Nick Griffin has showed himself to be quite inarticulate, vague and confused in his opinions. So to everyone who is upset that he was allowed on the show, I think you can take heart that I doubt anyone will trust the running of the country to Nick Griffin after last night's performance. The man is barely capable of debating his own opinions or policies! He is a hypocrite. When the audience member (ethnic minority) spoke up and said "where shall I go back to? I was born here and I love this country", Nick replied "I'm happy for you to stay here". Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't that totally AGAINST his policies?

Stretford SimonOctober 23rd 2009.

It was a sad night for all involved. It took 5 minutes to dismantle his arguments and expose him for what he really was, but the 'mainstream' parties took full advantage to make sure the spotlight was never on them.It was more a stifling of discussion than a promotion of it

FinnOctober 23rd 2009.

Rachel, oddly enough you're right in that the man is a fool but you're wrong in your facts. Gaelic is a young language in that time scale. The Celts were incomers like the all of us. They arrived about at the most seven hundred years before the Romans. We're a ba****d race of immigrants - the so-called Celtic nations of Irish, Welsh and North Western Scots forget that they must have chased some other buggers off.

M30October 23rd 2009.

Despite me disagreeing with Nick Griffin on various issues (although I'd be keen to hear his policies on transport, regional development, the privatisation of the post office etc etc etc), I think he has to be applauded for bringing the elephant into the room. Hopefully now the mainstream political parties can now engage the public in a frank debate about immigration in the UK. The reason the BNP are getting the support they are is because they're the only party to put it's head above the parapet and say that enough is enough, particularly in respect to immigration from Islamic countries. When this subject came to the fore in the Netherlands, it was met with intelligent debate, as opposed to baiting anyone who dast speak their mind on the issue.

Simon TOctober 23rd 2009.

I can't see how the programme could avoided being "unbalanced". How do you provide balance in that situation? Invite another few Holocaust deniers, homophobes, and racists onto the show? Show a recruitment video by the KKK? End the show by offering up a phone line for any work shy aborigines worried about immigrants talking funny?

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Dig, I couldn't give a toss what you say about disabled people, blacks or asians to be honest. However if you're going to criticise the BNP for being racist and then be disablist in your attack against them, then I just find the whole thing rather hypocritical.

AngealOctober 23rd 2009.

O......"lazy, no mark, non working, benefit cheating, greggs pasty eating, Jeremy Kyle guest looking, white indeginous British." So that's your view of all white British people is it? No wonder this country is in the state it is with such self-loathers like you about.

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela: it's you need to realise the country, whether you like it or not, *is* multi-cultural. No-one has the right to force religion/lifestyle on others. Resentment comes though forced instruction. Multi-cultruism is not about force, it is about acceptance, understanding, and the freedom to share. As for disagreeing with homosexuality that by its very nature implies intolerance and that *is* homophobia dictionary definitions aside.

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

Alice, I don't need to stick up for Angela I just think you lot are making fools of yourselves. Angela has a different view to you, you are not going to change her mind so get over it. As for your earlier points about her trotting out that she had gay friends, well frankly you trotted out you were gay quick enough and I'm not sure of the relevance of that to her original points. So you're gay, you don't agree with Angela, are you going to tell us anything of any note? Like how you would put the minds of a lot of the working class at rest regarding Islamic extremists and immigration.

AlfieOctober 23rd 2009.

As much as I hated the hideous little biggoted gargoyle griffen.. When asked about the Gately/Sunday Mail debate one of the few none immigration questions ..It became apparent that Sayeeda Warsi was a campaigner and thus a homophobe!!

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

TomG, Support for the BNP gone through the roof since Question Time so don't really think he came across as that bad to people do you?

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

In other words you don't have a source that you can point others to, so people just have to take your word for it.

John WilliamsOctober 23rd 2009.

Thank you Jonathan for this. My thoughts: Bonnie Greer knocked the socks off the rest of them and reminded us how to deal with extremists everywhere - argue in a calm logical way until they disappear.

DigOctober 23rd 2009.

'The People' was a generalisation referring to the vast majority of the population of Britain. Or are you too dim to read between the lines? The man can't walk down the street without getting screamed at. The only reason he doesn't get attacked is because of the police presence and his bodyguards. How many men of the people need that sort of protection to walk down the street? He wants to rid Britain of ethnic minorities. If he hasn't noticed he and his followers ARE an ethnic minority as that sort of hatred and bigotry isn't ethnically correct to 99% of this population.

DigOctober 23rd 2009.

I'm starting my own political party. When I'm in power I'm going to send retired people to Switzerland for lethal injection and send ugly children to America for plastic surgery. When I'm in power I think I'll start with your family Angela. Got to start somewhere. I know you think those kids are lovely but it's my racist nazi dictatorship that calls the shots now. What? Don't you like my policies? Are they a bit extreme? Do you think? Well sorry for having opinions you don't agree with. If you, your family and friends disagree and want to fight back at me for being so extemely prejusticed then that makes you all facists doesn't it? By your logic it does anyway.

tomegranateOctober 23rd 2009.

Robajob you scamp, I got all the way to the end of your first post before I twigged you were joking! Thanks for the blood pressure increase.

Wait for the backlash .....October 23rd 2009.

Antony, I agree with you. Whilst I would not vote BNP, I was concerned with the one sided attack on Nick Griffiths .. he did say "if people want to come to our country then they need to understand that fundamentally we are a christian nation" .. if we move to asia, we understand that they are muslim/hindu etc .. we don't expect to start changing the law to represent our beliefs (ie sharia law) so why should they? He said he wouldn't be kicking anyone out the country .. and quite right too .. it would be ridiculous if he did. He was merely referring to future immigration and how it affects us .. but the panel and audience seemed to ignore these points not understand his view. I agree with these issues. BUT, these are issues that the main political parties should deal with.He is a very bigoted man with racist views and to hear he was talking to the ku klux klan is a very scary thing indeed. I repeat, I am not a BNP supporter by any means, but I am happy to hear what someone has to say without shouting them down.To have them in our government would be a travesty .. but on immigration as mentioned above, maybe .. just maybe they have a point.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

I was wondering which petty person would pick up on that. I thought it might have been you O. And I know you are white and British....with serious self esteem issues as I said before by the sounds of it. Slow kid.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

JJ....Firstly, at the very least they should adopt the English language. There's many foreign people in this country who can hardly speak any English at all and the number of children in schools ( which in the area I live are made up of at least 90% of foreign children ) who have very little understanding of the English language as they are not encouraged to speak it at home is getting larger all the time.

Liverpool wagOctober 23rd 2009.

How come nobody has a sense of humour in Manchester? I'm off back to Liverpool

OOctober 23rd 2009.

rightly so that he was constantly attacked

tomegranateOctober 23rd 2009.

Is it that time already? Cheers.

Simon TOctober 23rd 2009.

I wouldn't object to people building churches in Pakistan, why would I??? Multi-culturalism is a good thing, that's what I maintain. And the scenario I'm describing is not only "lovely", it's the reality for me and my family. I'm proud of my kids and their mates. They're a living lesson to us all; they see Griffin on the TV, and they just think, in their words, WTF?!

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Better than the future that's ahead of us now

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

We can all get saddle sore by sitting on our high horses but I think 'the masses' will have seen last night differently. Griffin was there and it was a wasted opportunity to tackle his policies. So predictable. Griffin will have gained support not lost it.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

The "mainstream parties" have blown it. It's too late for them. Too many people are fed up of them and their lies and the BNP will only get stronger and stronger. And I don't see what's scary about that??

scoteeeOctober 23rd 2009.

bloody hell you lot are worse than me for ranting all day! All the BNP are doing is filling the void created by the governments wishy washy approach to immigration in our request for a balanced and fairer community. Until a real party steps in and supports the concenrs of the majority on immigration then these idiots will continue to air their antiquated ignorance. I am done with argiung about it. The BNP will never get in in a thousand Sunday's. Calm down dears they're just a commercial!

scoteeeOctober 23rd 2009.

Er, I think I may have said that quite clearly in my earlier rant cas.

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

Oh Angie, open up your heart...

CasOctober 23rd 2009.

So can we make jokes about everything then wag? Those darkies included?

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

M30: heck they have problems flying to Dublin some days...

Angela MerkelOctober 23rd 2009.

Britain! Pay off your credit cards or WE will expell YOU from Europe...

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

I am the last person who would believe what the media says. I have seen enough evidence from Muslim sites etc and that is where my opinion comes from. And I say so-called minorities because where I live I certainly don't feel part of the "majority!"

DigOctober 23rd 2009.

Oh yeah sorry I was getting carried away then. The violence is wrong but understandable considering the hatred he inspires. Now I am going to do with Angela what everybody should do with The BNP to make them go away and ignore her.

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Ah, the marching out of the "I've got gay friends" card --- a tactic that is used frequently by homophobes as a means of excusing their homophobia. It is not for you to agree or disagree with homosexuality, it is a natural part of human sexuality; you just have to accept it.

EuropeanOctober 23rd 2009.

Seen the light, Angela: You 'get more out of' Europe if you are a developing nation, you pay if you are First World. Britain, stand up to your responsibility - you can't milk the Commonwealth and then refuse participation. To me, you lot are barely Second World, hardly 'leading' on anything but debt creation...

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Angela, and where is this data available, and saying form the schools is not the right answer. Pointing at a report in print or on the web though would be.

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

I should also add that the major issues facing the UK at present aren't anything to to with multi-culturalism or immigration (illegal or otherwise), but as a result of financial mismanagement by major finance houses worldwide.

DigOctober 23rd 2009.

Sunday Mirror. Nick Griffins mother in law says he has never done a proper days work in his life since he left Cambridge as he believed it would interfere with him achieving his vision of an all white Britain. So a Cambridge educated, non working, National Front activist, now racist party leader considers himself a man of the people. I don't know if Griffin has noticed but whenever he goes anywhere 'the people' want to kill him.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Thankyou very much. I appreciate that.

tomegranateOctober 23rd 2009.

Since when does respecting someone's opinion mean you can't argue against if you don't agree with them?! The freedom to your own opinion is worthless if you don't (or can't) defend it.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Why of course anonymous

tomegranateOctober 23rd 2009.

So is strongly disagreeing with someone disrespectful in itself??

AliceOctober 23rd 2009.

Scottee, problem is their intellectually bereft leader is selling an intellectually bereft political agenda to the intellectual bereft. If they people who are supporting the BNP actually thought for themselves they'd see that the agenda is not only intolerant but unachievable --- financially and ethically. To deport *one* illegal immigrant it costs of the order of £11,000. Now scale that by the numbers the BNP what to get rid of, even allowing for economies of scale, and boom, a finacially bankrupt UK, never mind a morally bankrupt one.

DigOctober 23rd 2009.

It was an extreme point about people close to you being sent away by a racist dictatorship. I have black family and Asian friends and would fear for them if the BNP were to ever get in power. Not that they ever will. Too many voting, decent, open minded people with common sense in this country. Anyway the point was valid. Not that I'm going to concern myself with comments from any anonymous ranters.

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

Eh? I thought you shouted down those who googled to back up their argument? Unbelievable.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Sounds fair enough to me

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Well I am with Nick Griffin 100%. I thought he did well considering the audience that was deliberately picked and the other panel members. Has only made me admire him and the fact that he has the guts to tell the truth even more.

tomegranateOctober 23rd 2009.

Bit strange - that that's almost the same thing I said to you yesterday Cas. Hmm...

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Children with English as their first language are in the minority in more than 1,300 schools, according to official figures.Data from the Department for Children, Schools and Families (DCSF) shows that in 1,338 primary and secondary schools in England there are fewer children with English as their first language than those who consider it a second language.**The figures led to warnings about the pressure that the number of children with English as a second language places on schools and teachers.****Coping with large numbers of foreign children risked undermining the quality of teaching given to all pupils, critics say.**The general secretary of the Professional Association of Teachers, Philip Parkin, said rising levels of immigration and a lack of multi-lingual teaching staff were "providing serious challenges" for schools trying to maintain standards.**"Dealing with non-English-speaking children makes it much harder to deliver the curriculum," he said.****Parkin added: "Schools that are in that position need considerable support in order to give those children help with English and help with our curriculum. "The government needs to be looking at funding the employment of teachers or teaching assistants, in addition to the staff they have, who are bilingual or multilingual."****Last month, the general secretary National Association of Head Teachers, Mick Brookes, told a Lords committee that some schools were struggling to cope with the influx of foreign pupils.****Brookes told the Telegraph that the latest figures proved the case for putting additional resources into the areas dealing with large numbers of non-English speakers.**Note **

scoteeeOctober 23rd 2009.

1943-45 british support against german nazi war lost the following.and the list goes on Ethnicity Casualties British – Eng, Scots, Irish, Welsh 100 Hindus other Indian religions[15] 1650 Muslims 1413 Nepalese 1500 Sikh[16] 850

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

P.S £11,000 one off payment per immigrant? Now that wouldn't be bad at all considering how much it costs us to keep them and their families here for the rest of their lives. Think we'd be a hell of a lot better off

AnonymousOctober 23rd 2009.

Clearly seditious?I agree with Cas no tolerance should be offered to people who can be proved to be planning atrocities, but what platform should be give to a group whose officers say "There needs to be a few 'white riots' around the country a la the Brixton riots of the 1980s before the idiot white liberal middle class and their ethnic middle-class fellow travellers wake up".Would you not agree with me this is clearly seditious.

AngelaOctober 23rd 2009.

Freedom and democracy are part of our culture and we are in danger of losing that if certain other cultures get their way.

JAmes TOctober 23rd 2009.

And what did you think of the article and the subject pedant?

Simon TOctober 23rd 2009.

It doesn't say whether the talented black sportsmen will be shipped back 'home' before or after the World Cup or even the Olympic Games (2012). I really wonder whether you can bear to have people of a different religion or skin colour in your street for that long? C'mon BNP sort it out.

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