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Big City Nightclub Showdown

Paul Berentzen on 50 complaints, roller-skating derbies and music on Quay House

Published on September 12th 2011.


Big City Nightclub Showdown

PLANS for a 1,500 capacity multi-purpose venue on Quay Street next to the Opera House are set to meet strong opposition at a town meeting on Thursday. 

DJ-led events' will only take place around 8 times a month, however, and other, less controversial, events planned for the space include flower shows, award ceremonies and roller-skating derbies.

Councillor Kevin Peel “absolutely” opposes the plans for transforming the basement of Quay House and intends to fight the proposal. 

Bar operator Trof, which runs the Trof bars in Manchester and Fallowfield and Deaf Institute and The Corner, plans to turn the unused underground car-park into an independent “exhibition and entertainment space”. 

Among the proposed functions for the property will be club-nights running until 3am at the weekend. 

Councillor Peel argues that “most of the application is actually very sensible” but that Trof “need to get rid of the night club element”. 

He added that neighbouring residents have the “right to a good night’s sleep” without “late-night noise nuisance” and “people pissing in their doorways”. 

Joel Wilkinson, who operates the Trof bars, is keen to stress that he has taken residents’ concerns into account. 

In order to get approval for their venue license Trof had to demonstrate that it was able to meet the legal standards for noise and crowd dispersion.

An acoustic survey, carried out in December 2010, found that the proposed sound-proofing  will be sufficient to prevent noise exceeding permitted levels. 

Trof has also amended its proposal once already in response to concerns voiced by residents. 

After an initial meeting with around 20 concerned residents that “didn’t go too well”, Mr Wilkinson “went back to the drawing board” and altered the plans “significantly”. The original application included plans to stay open until 5.30am at the weekend. 

The property’s neighbours, however, remain unconvinced and Councillor Peel believes that the number of people who have contacted him to complain shows the strength of public opposition. 

He said around 50 individuals and a group of about 35 people have already voiced their opposition to the planned venue. 

Asked about residents’ concerns, Mr. Wilkinson said that he doesn’t want “any disputes with any neighbours” and stressed the importance of having their support. 

He also pointed out that he already successfully operates a number of bars in other areas with a greater number of residents living nearby. 

He added that he is concerned people are focusing solely on the late-license events, which are only a small part of the proposal. 

'DJ-led events' will only take place around 8 times a month, however, and other, less controversial, events planned for the space include flower shows, award ceremonies and roller-skating derbies.

Councillor Peel has said he intends to meet with Mr Wilkinson on Monday to discuss his objections to the plans. 

Looking forward to Thursday’s meeting, Mr. Wilkinson said he intends to “tell them the truth of what I’m trying to do” and that he hopes people will see the benefits of his plans. 

COMMENT

THIS is a curious case. There are limited numbers of apartments around Quay House – mainly those over the road and down a bit at the Lower Byrom Street/Quay Street junction.

Meanwhile entertainment has a long heritage in this area. Both Peter Street and Quay Street have been prime Manchester fun zones since the advent of the music hall days of the nineteenth century.

It’s only in recent years that this has declined on Quay Street – remember opposite the proposed club venue there was a rowdy ‘sports’ bar, a bar that was still operating after the closest flats were built.

On the face of it, while we can understand the concerns of a limited numbers of residents nearby, we think the club proposals have value in terms of boosting the night time economy and the club scene, and also in the context of the heritage of the area.

Here's an idea. Maybe the council could ringfence areas in and around the city centre as places suitable for late licences, so residents moving in would be aware of the fact that a club may, if the right site comes available, pop up on their doorstep. Then they’d have less reason to complain…..not that that would probably stop them.

Having said that if you move to the city centre wouldn't the fact that this sort of thing might happen have crossed your mind?

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216 comments so far, continue the conversation, write a comment.

NeilSeptember 12th 2011.

I cannot be doing with people who move to the city-centre because they want to be in and around the buzz and the excitement of the city-centre but then complain when a business wants to open a night venue that creates a bit of buzz and excitement.

Bars open and close, that's what happens in all cities. Areas of town that were very busy a few years ago now are empty and others have taken over. These flat-dwellers will be the ones always looking to find the 'next' spot...but will moan if it happens to be too close to them. If it was a quarter of a mile up the road (say the old Odeon cinema) then the same people would be looking forward to the opeining.

At least when you get countryside NIMBYs they had the reasonable expectation that countryside would stay undeveloped. But 30something city-centre flat owners? They're the worst kind.

2 Responses: Reply To This...
Julie TurnerSeptember 12th 2011.

its not a case of NIMBYS but Manchester has different areas and people choose where they want to be to suit their lifestyle. If they want to be in the 'buzz' of it all they ll choose certain areas but this area is more low-key

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

What is your definition of 'buzz'?

You are correct in that things change in city centres and guess what? It is a residenntial area at the bottom end of Quay Street.

Why do 1,500 pissheads ake priority to families acrross the road?

Gary RatcliffeSeptember 12th 2011.

I sort off accept most of those points... I live in NQ and only moaned about the excess of the proposed applications.. all business 'try it on'. Some people will object to everything but most are trying to keep their neighbourhood civilised. Buzz and excitement are good but it takes more than a license to create a good vibe. its generally about the punters...

The NQ is a good example. I have been there for over 10 yrs. Seen it gradually change as blu opened. I think most people will think the area has got a good vibe. If the bar owners had free run it would have rapidly taken over from the print works!! As it is its taking much longer..lol

Kevin PeelSeptember 12th 2011.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding of city centre life here. What I said in my wider comments - which were not put into this article - is that the city centre is as diverse as any other ward - there are noisy areas and quiet areas and residents make their decisions about where to live accordingly.

I get very few complaints about noise nuisance and anti-social behaviour in some areas of the city you might expect them from because residents who have chosen to live in the midst of the hustle and bustle of Manchester's vibrant night life expect it and it is clearly, to them, within reasonable limits.

Complaints come when quiet residential and commercial areas like Quay Street get applications in which are not fit for the area. A nightclub with a 1,500 capacity is such an example and residents have the right to raise objections.

There was no way to foresee when renting or buying a property that such a venue might appear in this area. Quay House is an office block and the space we are talking about is a car park. To my knowledge, until this applciation there was never any discussion of anything like this.

Many people move into the city centre because not in spite of the bars, restaurants and clubs on offer, but that isn't to say that every city centre resident expects - and should have to - live next door to a 24 hour disco. I think this is a perception many people who don't live in the city centre have and it is very wrong.

2 Responses: Reply To This...
PaulSeptember 12th 2011.

Well said Kev! This adds more context to what I feel is a biased article towards the developer.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Paul, I agree it is very biased but then I suppose they need him as a potential advertiser.

ChorltonianSeptember 12th 2011.

Completely agree with the ManCon comments on this. There aren't a huge amount of resi developments in the area, and the Trof plans are for a basement which will be well insulated. If you decide to live in the city centre of Manchester, you are very naive if you do not expect there to be 24 hour nightlife and its associated issues.

6 Responses: Reply To This...
IzzySeptember 12th 2011.

But then again, if you chose to live close to an occupied office block with an underground car park you don't expect it to become a late-night club venue do you?

Kevin PeelSeptember 12th 2011.

Exactly Izzy!

ChorltonianSeptember 12th 2011.

But there plenty of other bars and clubs on Quay Street, just yards away from Quay House. Its a noisy area already, without this addition

IzzySeptember 12th 2011.

Where are the 'plenty' of other bars and clubs on Quay Street? I believe there are (were some) rather dubious places on Peter Street, but I'm wracking my brains about Quay Street....

ChorltonianSeptember 12th 2011.

Walkabout and its associated night club. Plus there is a very large, currently vacant sports bar right opposite Quay House. Two very large and very noisy bars/nightclubs. Plus theres Grapes just next to Sunlight House. Thats more than enough to suggest to someone moving to live in the area that there could be plenty of noise of an evening

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Cholrltonian, there is more to a city than '24 hour nightlife'

Might I suggest it is also suggest it is naive to plan a 1,500 venue acroos the road from 3,000 residents at Bauhaus, Rosetti and Leftbank?

Grapes causes no botherm Walkabout is OK, the Opera House no bother either. If another Grapes went up accross the road then no bother, but not a 1,500 venue!

You say it is already noisy down here so therefore agree that it is already too noisy and a 1,500 venue will ush the limit.

David GSeptember 12th 2011.

This is not an issue of NIMBY-ism, and rejecting every new proposal.

Surely if this city wants to succeed in its ambition of competing on the international stage it should encourage a variety of communities within the city centre.

Of course it's a busy city, of course it's not a library, but why shouldn't we strive to have areas that are family-orientated and aren't dominated by late-night, alcohol-fuelled venues.

This particular area of the city centre has become an immensely pleasurable place to live over the past few years, with the proximity of St. John's Gardens and MOSI attracting a wide range of external visitors to the city. I have had great feedback from foreign friends on the attractiveness and relative tranquility of this patch of the city centre.

As Kev has quite rightly mentioned, the application is not fit for this area. Regardless of the sound-proofing of the venue and dispersal policies, this wouldn't solve the problem of people leaving the venue and congregating in the local area with the associated noise problems and anti-social behaviour this brings.

There are alternative areas of the city centre that could comfortably accommodate another late-night venue. The St. John's Gardens area is a refreshingly homely and tranquil part of the city centre fabric; a character that the proposal as it stands would completely destroy.

3 Responses: Reply To This...
Kevin PeelSeptember 12th 2011.

Absolutely spot on David.

Julie TurnerSeptember 12th 2011.

totally agree with your comments

PaulSeptember 12th 2011.

I disagree, then I always do, even with myself, oh no I don't.

FurFoxAcheSeptember 12th 2011.

A responsible buyer/renter will have researched the area and found that the Sports Cafe and Walkabout were in the area not long ago (is walkabout still there?). Anyone who wants to take these places and turn them into bars again, can. Sports cafe used to close at 6am on a Monday when the Superbowl was on.

Couple this with the fact there are numerous pubs and bars such as Bar 38, within a stone's throw should really tell you that this isn't an area to live if you want a quiet life.

3 Responses: Reply To This...
Kevin PeelSeptember 12th 2011.

The Sports Cafe is a great example - it was a horrid venue that caused huge issues for residents. If plans come up to open it again they will be looked at very carefully. Walkabout is much further up and people tend to leave and go eastbound rather than west down Quay Street. From Quay House 1,500 people will be spilling all over the area and causing huge disturbance to the residents opposite.

PaulSeptember 12th 2011.

A "responsible buyer" would research the area. When you see an office block with an underground car park, you expect this to be used as an office block with an underground car park. You don't suddenly expect this to be turned into a nightclub.
Now if you take an existing bar and turn it into a bar, I can see that it used to be a bar so not an issue. Using a car park is taking things to an extreme.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Conversely a responsible bar owner will have researched the area and found that it is packed with apartments and residents.

Takes two to do their research!

Bar 38 is not a stones throw!From my place I hear nothing on Deansagte at all. In fact it is quiter here than it is at my folks in the suburbs.

Julie TurnerSeptember 12th 2011.

It is expected that there will be bars and nightclubs in the city and this area there are various bars, hotel and theatres all 'low key' and that is why it is attractive to people and why it needs to be protected. When we were first given the details it was proposed that this 'nightclub' would be staying open until 3am with 1500 people as it was going to have live bands 1500 could potentially all be leaving around the same time and so it would be around 4am before it was quiet (hopefully)

2 Responses: Reply To This...
Julie TurnerSeptember 12th 2011.

having read where the areas of Trof bars are the comment was that they had no issues with residents in these areas, well these happen to be 'student' areas so ofcourse there would be no issues

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

It is funny that this company suddenly wants to now promote flower shows and childrens rollerskating. I though thye rans bars and clubs.

It is good to see Trof diversify and I look forward to seeing the Womens Institute be invited to the Deaf Institute to put on flower arranging demonstrations of an evening.

I might see if I can have my nephews 6th birthday party there a week on Friday.

It must be tough in the licensed trade these days so they have to turn to all manner of things.

SimonSeptember 12th 2011.

To say that people who live in a city centre should expect to put up with anti-social behaviour and excessive noise (not necessarily from the venue but from the people leaving it) because they’re in a city centre is slightly unfair.

The area in which this proposed venue is being put is supposedly the premier business district in Manchester and (according to the Spinningfield’s website) on a par with La Defence and Canary Wharf). It houses restaurants, cafe bars, theatres, shops and residential properties. This is a huge venue (it would be one of the biggest clubs in Manchester) with a proposed license until 3am (far past anything else in the vicinity), which just does not fit in with the locality.

I’m all for progression in Manchester (hell that’s what make this city great), but a 1,500 capacity night club, with people leaving after 3am and with the associated issues that will come with it, feels wrong.

PaulSeptember 12th 2011.

I completely agree with the comments raised by Kevin Peel. Life in the city is not about staying out drinking until 3am ; there is more to offer such as restaurants, green space and museums. Noise is an issue yes, but also other issues that come with a nightclub, anti social behaviour, noise, litter, etc

Perhaps the writer should visit Spinningfields at 9am on a Saturday morning and watch all the films that are shown for children. This is what we should be encouraging in this area, a family atmosphere.

Take the logo of Spinningfields, “meet me there x”, will this be rebranded, “meet me there via the drunk and the smashed bottle x”. Somehow this isn’t the image Manchester should portray if it wants to compete on an international stage......

If I want to live near an office block, I don't expect the car park to be turned into an all night club. "Car park" when I was at school implies that cars park in it, not a DJ spinning his decks. Why not use the many empty units on Peter Street that were designed for this use?

James SpencerSeptember 12th 2011.

Neil# has identified a new group of people to add to those who ManCon ranters thinks are Orwellian Unpersons…. "30something city-centre flat owners They're the worst kind" among the chavs, low lifes hoodies and rioters....

Of course it does strike some of us that it might be better if we actually moved the Late Night Economy to a separate quarter, near the Airport perhaps…. a giant Printworks type fun Palace. Maybe Peel Holdings might be interested.

There is a question of its economic benefit of course. You only have to sell about 6 flats in the City Centre to fund outfitting a bar. Selling six in my block would fund a largish club. There are 150 licensed premises in the City Centre. How many flats are there? What would happen to the flat prices and the rest of the Centre Economy if a lot of the Late Night Economy disappeared.

Who has the money, who contributes to the CityCentre eeconomy, who are Man Cons Heros, and where is Gordo?

And who are the voters as well.

AnonymousSeptember 12th 2011.

there are a lot of empty units on peter street, why not make better use of the empty unit that is branigans or the one that was chicago rock, maybe it would breathe a bit of life back ito the area.

4 Responses: Reply To This...
Kevin PeelSeptember 12th 2011.

Funny you should say that, the same person who plans to transform Quay House also wants to re-open Brannigans as a Trof and live music venue. I actually welcome this plan and look forward to worknig constructively with him and neighbours to see it happen in a sensitive way.

Duke FameSeptember 12th 2011.

I don't think there is a need for the councillor to work constructively with the entrepreneur who is trying to set up a business. Simply get an appliction for a licence and grant it unless there is a very good reason. The entrepreneur is taking the risks and there is no need for councillors to poke their noses in.

Kevin PeelSeptember 12th 2011.

Well perhaps you don't but I think it is important for councillors to be standing up for residents and also supporting businesses and working constructively with both when issues arise.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

DUKE FAME, so a business takes ppriority over residents?

What about somebody who runs their own business but lives accross the road from this venue.

Shouldn't I as an 'entrepreneur' also taking risks be entitled to at least six hours sleep so that I can support my business and staff?

Why is one entrepreneur favoured over another?

James SpencerSeptember 12th 2011.

Just a note about the editorial:

This is a comment on the 'editorial' in yellow!!
This is a debate on a licensing application and both applicants and makers of representations, (not objections), must work with the Manchester Statement of Licensing Policy 2011 - 2014 which is here: www.manchester.gov.uk/…/licensing_act_policy_2011-2014….

There is nothing “curious” about it which cannot be contexted by the above. Here are some simple points

>There are limited numbers of apartments around Quay House<

The overall principle of Manchester's Licensing Policy is:

"Licensed premises are an integral part of our communities and this Licensing Policy is a key tool in ensuring the different circumstances of our neighbourhoods are taken into account when considering licence applications."

(A substantial portion of the policy explaining in detail how it is hoped to achieve this)

There are a number of key factors in the policy which need to be addressed in applications and representations but….anyone can make a "representation" including those supporting the application providing that it:

"relates to the likely effect of the granting of the application upon one or more of the licensing objectives; and must not (in the case of Interested Parties) be considered by the Licensing Authority as frivolous or vexatious.

The licensing objectives are:

The prevention of crime and disorder
The prevention of public nuisance
Public safety

The protection of children from harm

>"was a rowdy ‘sports’ bar, a bar that was still operating after the closest flats were built"..."club proposals have value in terms of boosting the night time economy and the club scene, and also in the context of the heritage of the area".<

“Each application considered on its merit”,

so unless something like 'heritage' or the behaviour of other premises can be linked to the application and the objectives, they are not relevant. Nor is the ' boosting the night time economy and the club scene' These latter are planning or economic and cultural considerations outside licensing.

But in a wider context the overall principle see above and its elaboration in the Policy provide room for a discussion of managing or not the City Centre’s ‘neighbourhoods’, whatever they are in the light of these wider issues.

1 Response: Reply To This...
Staff
Jonathan SchofieldSeptember 12th 2011.

That's a bit narrow. Whether you take a narrow view of the licensing acts or decide on a broad vision of the city centre is a matter of choice. I favour the latter should be a priority.

Duke FameSeptember 12th 2011.

i wonder if the Night club has a disclaimer that their customers do not intend 'pissing in doorways' we may avoid the major objections.

I'm with Neil, if you move to the city centre, the advantage is you are near teh night-life. It shouldn't take a genius to work out that there may be a disadvantage to be near the night life as well.

Kev Peel seems to have a habit of making himself available for comment. Has he got a proper job apart from being a councillor?

5 Responses: Reply To This...
Kevin PeelSeptember 12th 2011.

I'm just working hard to stand up for local residents Mr Fame, and yes I do also have a day job - which leaves me little time for frequenting the many clubs that keep opening!

SimonSeptember 12th 2011.

Living in the City Centre is an advantage as you are near the night-life, but why should that justify anti-social behaviour?

Can you honestly say that 1,500 people spilling out onto the streets after 3am (and dare I say one or two might have had a drink) will not result in any excess noise, vandalism or "pissing in doorways".

Why is a car park which will be demolished in under 2 years for a new office being considered as a viable alternative to the large number of empty units causing an eyesore on Peter Street?

Duke FameSeptember 12th 2011.

Ther aren't many opening though. The pub & club sector has taken a battering in recent years and it's hard to make them work. They need support not objection.

SimonSeptember 12th 2011.

I agree I support sensible applications that fit in with the area in which they are in.

How does this application fit into a local area?

I would support any local application for a bar / restaurant / shop which improves the local area. I support the knocking down of Quay House and the building of more office blocks (including the guaranteed disruption and noise which will come as a result and will affect me personally). I support it becuase I think that is what is best for this City, that is what will make it a better place to work, to shop, to socialise in and to live in.

I don't want empty bars and shops littering the streets of this City. I encourage and support the applicant to look at the likes of Brannigans, Chicago Rock and Coliseum as alternatives each with their own history and currently lying empty. Turn this from a 2 year project into a long-term project which will benefit Manchester.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

DUKE FAME said of bars 'they need support not objection'.

Why does a bar owner need more support than doctor who can't sleep at night due to his bar?

I would say that this bar owner is doing OK if he has a few already and wants to open up more. Not exactly struggling.

PaulSeptember 12th 2011.

Mr Fame, I don't agree that Kevin Peel is making himself available for comment. I have lived in the city for 6 years now and he is the best councillor we have had and I hope he continues his excellent work.
I'm not sure where you live Mr Fame, but wouldn't you want the support of your councillor to assist in your local area?

3 Responses: Reply To This...
Duke FameSeptember 12th 2011.

In fairness, you've always had Labour councillors, what you are saying is Kev is the best of a bad bunch ;-)

Kevin PeelSeptember 12th 2011.

Thanks Paul! Duke - I'm actually the first ever Labour councillor for the city centre!

PaulSeptember 13th 2011.

.....and Duke that is why Kev got voted in because he is different to previous councillors who did nothing to support city residents. Labour or not doesn't matter.

James SpencerSeptember 12th 2011.

The last passage in the 'Editorial' 'The Yellow Press' reads :

"Maybe the council could ringfence areas in and around the city centre as places suitable for late licences, so residents moving in would be aware of the fact that a club may, if the right site comes available, pop up on their doorstep. Then they’d have less reason to complain…..not that that would probably stop them."

The Council have always been for Mixed Development and rejected 'zoning'. In effect 'practical' zoning has 'accidentally' occurred on CityCentreSouth for instance and on the south side of Whitworth Street and the north side of Whitworth Street West. will come to mind.

Itt won't and can't do what is suggested since it is in restraint of trade. In any case the current Government's Planning Policy will probably scupper such suggestions.

In real life the balance of interests between residents offices, retail, and bars/eateries is a managed though a set of formal bodies of which the licensing committee is one, consultation bodies and discussions with the Council Officers about issues.

Nowadays most licensing issues are settled by negotiation (as Kev is in process )and noise issues by the parties working with council officers.

James SpencerSeptember 12th 2011.

Dear Duke Fame Until May we actually had lib dems in the cc (except one left em)

1 Response: Reply To This...
Duke FameSeptember 12th 2011.

More fool you for voting them out.

the Whalley RangerSeptember 12th 2011.

Good Lord - we are talking about Quay Street right next door to the Opera House. That is undoubtedly bang in the centre of what used to be one of the most 'lively' areas of Manchester.

The recession has killed off many of the venue in the immediate proximity - surely the arguments for rejecting an experienced operator like Trof are total and utter nonsense... Nimbyism in its classic form.

Whilst at first glance my thoughts go out to all those how might be inconvenienced by the proposal, my only response can be to advise anyone who lives/is thinking of living/ continues to live in the centre of a conurbation of two and a half million people called Greater Manchester:

get a weekend home like the French if you want quiet!

6 Responses: Reply To This...
SimonSeptember 12th 2011.

I'd disagree with "bang in centre of what used to be one of the most lively areas of Manchester.

Walkabout and Sports Cafe have been the only 2 large bars on Quay Street in the last 5-6 years. Peter Street has for 10-15 year prior to that been a large hub for "lively" bars/clubs.

But therein lies an issue this isn't Peter Street this is Quay Stree right by 4 major residental developments. Walk around Byrom Street and Lower Byrom Street late on a weekend night and trust me its not particluarly noisey.

I've lived in the City Centre for 6 years, yes it can be busy and yes it can be loud at times. I don't like walking the streets dodging last night vomit / urine and doing it every week.

Duke FameSeptember 12th 2011.

I can't see why the re-opening of the Branigans unit will avoid vomit & urine whilst Quay street will will all of a sudden attract urine & vomitors.

There may also be a rates issue, it may be cheaper business rates for an old car park. I don't know but it's a consideration into the operating costs.

the Whalley RangerSeptember 12th 2011.

It's 'Bar38 area', mate - just like Canal Street isn't just Canal Street, but also Sackville etc, NQ not just Thomas Street and so on.

You bought a property on Chav Street but don't like vomit? Priceless!

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

''That is undoubtedly bang in the centre of what used to be one of the most 'lively' areas of Manchester''

That is exactly my point Whalley Ranger. It 'used' to be livley but is now a residential part of town.

Things move on.

the Whalley RangerSeptember 13th 2011.

Things move on...

...time for the urban professionals that can't keep up with the city's pace to turn into suburban professionals?

I know it's hard but don't spoil it for the rest of humanity.

If noise is your prime concern, live up to your most important desire and do the right thing. Otherwise, your case will be lost sooner or later and a new generation of kids will show you where to stick your Nimbyism.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

So why don't the kids lead the way by getting trashed in their own back yard?

Because they to are nimbys. You too if you step outside of Whalley Range to party in somebody else back yard than your own.

James SpencerSeptember 12th 2011.

Dear Jon you must have missed this bit.

>In real life the balance of interests between residents offices, retail, and bars/eateries is a managed though a set of formal bodies of which the licensing committee is one, consultation bodies and discussions with the Council Officers about issues.<

ManCon is a player in this of course as I hinted earlier and readers need to understand this.

There are approx 9000 individuals. Perhaps Pat C will organise a Residents' Day. (he is a resident!) Street Parties for all with temporary liquor licenses and day and night music. (see NQ last weekend)

The property residents occupy is worth, very conservatively £600M

DagSeptember 12th 2011.

For those who do not live in the area, Spinningfields is predominantly Grade A office space with a number of higher end apartment buildings nearby. Quay House itself has been earmarked for demolition and redevelopment into either a hotel and/or offices for some for a number of years and at no point was it anticipated that it would become a night club venue as it simply doesn’t fit the locality for many reasons. Therefore residents would not have any reason to believe that it would be converted to this purpose even as a temporary measure.

The Sports Café was open at the time of development, and although it provided its share of problems, it did not have a near 2000 person capacity and regular 3am openings. Fortunately this shut. Problems already exist on Quay Street from Walkabout and there’s a lot of anti-social behaviour resulting from it (urinating, noise, damage and litter) and a Trof venue would both exacerbate the problem closer to residents and be a disturbance later into the morning.

Spinningfields is a great development but it is neither a student nor established drinking and nightclub zone. It fits itself far more to another Alchemist than a Trof. If a venue is required, why not look to the old Squares/Brannigans/Chicago Rock buildings?

I wonder how many people not living in the locality would like this unexpectedly put on their doorstep?

4 Responses: Reply To This...
Simon BinnsSeptember 13th 2011.

You could argue that a city centre locality is more likely to be earmarked for this sort of development than a suburb, and that people living in a city centre should appreciate that.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

You could also argue that being a quiet residential part of the city centre that anybody wanting to open a 1,500 capacity club until all hours should appreciate that it wouldn't be roundly welcomed.

Trouble is I am one of those freaks that can't get by on 3 hours sleep a night.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Smon Binns, what do you define as a city centre?

You refer to suburbs but there are different parts of a city centre that are different to each other, almost like little suburbs.

THE NQ is different to Spinningfileds which is different to NQ which is different to teh Village. When choosing to live in town you think do you want noisy clubs and lively Monday nights like the NQ or Village or do you want a quieter life in Castlefield or Spiiningfields. Maybe you love the Printworks and enjoy watching fights so you move there.

There is city centre and there is city centre. This claptrap of 'it's the city centre what do you expect is claptrap'

I expected no sleep when I lived in the Village and that is what I got - no sleep. I knew what I was letting myslef in for, but here it is quiet.

If the city centre is to be all as one then why not lets transport Tiger Tiger to the Gay Village, let's put Queer in the Printworks and lets get rid of the indepent bars in the NQ and put in a Panacea, Alchemist, price people out etc.

Let's do away with parts of town that have their own identity. How about we turn Central Library into a mixed use venue where there will be indoor motocross events taking place during the day. After all it is the city centre.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Simon, I appreciate that this might be the case in general, but Spinningfields is clearly not an area you’d expect this to be proposed given the predominance of office and residential.

In any case, Quay House is going to be knocked down in 12-18 months for a spec office build and the car park will revert to being a car park again. Why then cause such conflict with the c240 apartments within the vicinity (for those who dispute that there are apartments, it takes less than 15 seconds to walk between the venue and Rossetti/Bauhaus and you can see it from the front door of Rossetti). The operator even agreed that it was not a viable/workable scheme and wouldn’t go ahead given the concerns of residents.

the Whalley RangerSeptember 12th 2011.

...or come live in the Range!

It's the city, duffusSeptember 12th 2011.

All Nimbies will be exposed for what they are under the freedom of information act

11 Responses: Reply To This...
DagSeptember 12th 2011.

Exposed as what precisely?

It's the city, duffusSeptember 12th 2011.

Being a Nimby, duffus

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

What is the problem with being a nimby?

I don't care if a 1,500 club is being built in a residential part of Santiago because guess what? I don't live there.

There are many empty buildings in town where this could be and not near any residents.

Here we have families, many people over 45 and everyone from doctors, a surgeon, lawyers etc.

I'm not keen on the surgeon operating after three hours kip.

I have lived in the Village and in the Northern Quarter but knew what I was getting and it was great for a couple of years but I drive 1,000 miles a week and on a few occasions after 3 hours consecutive night sleep sleep found I was nodding off at the wheel which wasn't great to be honest.

This is not the NQ, not the Village, not studentsville around here. There is Bauhaus, Rosetti, Leftbank and the houses next to John Street Gardens.

Probaly about 3,000 residents that face being woken at 3am (ish) during a weekday but 1,500 pissheads piling out accross the road.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

DUFFUS, have you asked for the owner to look at venues accross the road from you are are you a nimby too?

It's the city, duffusSeptember 13th 2011.

You are exaggerating and need a helipad

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

A helipad?

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Duffus, anybody who doesn't go out within ten miuntes of where they live is a nimby.

It's the city, duffusSeptember 13th 2011.

ANON, which of my homes are you suggesting?

a) jamaican beach house
b) city flat Berlin
c) leafy suburban victorian property in M/C

Its the city, duffusSeptember 13th 2011.

Rephrase:

c) leafy suburban victorian property in M/C (ten minutes from town) :-)

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

I'll stick with:

d) the lonely bedsit

helipadSeptember 13th 2011.

1000 miles?

AnonymousSeptember 12th 2011.

Why exactly do bars have to be 'noisy' if you pass them on the street. ? Is it some right they they have over and above other businesses?

In fact they don't and haven't noisy in this way for some years now.

When the noise does occurs it is at chucking out time.

Lets reclaim the streets.

2 Responses: Reply To This...
Duke FameSeptember 12th 2011.

I'm sure the bars will not want to have an old fashioned chucking out time. They'll close when there aren't many customers. That avoids the clamber for taxis etc.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Exactly Duke. Thanks for your support.

It wont be a chucking out at 3am but a staedy flow bwteen say 11am and 3am and then you have the usual 1 hours dispersal so let's say no sleep between the hours of 11am and 4am so if I am up at 5.30am for work that is a cracking 90 minutes sleep.

Bring it on! I love the buzz of sleep deprivation. Love driving whilst dozing off.

Yep, this is what it is all about.

AnonymousSeptember 12th 2011.

MANCAT...

AnonymousSeptember 12th 2011.

Typical Cllr Peel nimbyism.

AnonymousSeptember 12th 2011.

Seems to me like Allied London (the developers of Spinningfields) approached Trof with this idea. There's nothing wrong with that, it's a further attempt to move away from the bland chains which dominated Spinninfields since its inception. I guess they'd like it to be a bit 'cooler'.

I'd hazard a guess that Allied London got wind of Trof eyeing up Brannigans (if this is true) and offered them their car park as a temporary alternative, along with lots of marketing, cheap rent and use of their planning consultants.

Again there's nothing wrong with that. But I do agree that the area around here is one of the few well located quiet areas left in the city centre. Trof itself would be a better venue in the Brannigans building than in a low-roofed bunker with crap acoustics.

The area around Peter Street has changed. Squares, Chicago and Sports Cafe have all gone. Peter Street now has Taps, Epernay, a decent curry house, a fancy casino and the Raddision.

Trof in Quay house would be good for Spinningfields. Trof in Brannigans would be good for Manchester.
But Trof nowhere would be good for nobody.

2 Responses: Reply To This...
Kevin PeelSeptember 13th 2011.

To be clear - we're not talking about a Trof in the basement of Quay House, we're talking about a 1,500 capacity nightclub.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

'bland chains'??

Carluccio? Nicky Clarke? The Law Courts? Mulberry? The Big Screen? Alchemist?

Yep, all bland. Bland is when everything is the same. You know, like every student bar is. Really indepedent and unique whilst all the same.

the Whalley RangerSeptember 12th 2011.

Spot on, anon - but do not underestimate the appeal of Quay House basement - Trof is the new Kro, the Brannigans site is 'culturally contaminated'.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

I work in the Spinningfields area and what a disaster a bar like this would be. Compare Manchester to Brindlay Place in Birmingham, they just woulnd't allow anthing like this. Noise is not the issue but the crowd the bar would attract.
More upmarket bars like the Alchemist would be ruined and business people would conduct business elsewhere.
Why spend 10 years developing/planning the Spinningfield area to then turn a car park into a nightclub. The building will be demolished in 2 years, I just can't understand why this location is suitable. Unless the applicant knows trash the area it doesn't matter it will be demolished anyway!

8 Responses: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

I work in Spinningfields too and I don't see that many people having business meetings on a Saturday at 10pm, presumably the time a nightclub would start up?

Having been in the alchemist on a Saturday night and seen some of the 'upmarket' crowd I doubt a further influx of people would ruin the atmosphere.

It's the city, duffusSeptember 13th 2011.

Not everyone is into 'aspirational bling' a la Carluccio's, anon. That doesn't mean the Trof lot don't have money.

In fact - coming to think of it - you Carluccio lot are propably the ones with the biggest credit card balance, being aspirational and all that...

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

''Not everyone is into 'aspirational bling' a la Carluccio's, anon''.

What is 'aspirational about a £7.00 Lasagne?

Also, not everybody is into 1,500 pissheads waking you up on a Tuesday nigtht at 3am. Might seem a bit odd but I need seven hours kip and struggle to stay awaye driving 1000 miles a week on 3 hours sleep.

It's the city, duffusSeptember 13th 2011.

Look Anon:

1) the Trof crowd aren't Sportsbar hooligans.

2) Tuesday's 3am? Where did you get that from?

3) Lasagne my @rse. Support the burger!

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

You are spot on.

It was pointed out that the kind of places around here are Alchemist, Australasia, the theatre, John Street Gardens, residential properties etc and the point was raised about how far away from his catchment this was and the mumbled response was something about he would not be seen dead in the Alcheimst

It's the city, duffusSeptember 13th 2011.

Sustainable diversity is what really works - UK needs more of it. I would go to the Alchemist AND Trof.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

''the Trof crowd aren't Sportsbar hooligans''.

Hang on, so if all of the people from Trof are coming to the new venue does that mean Trof will be empty? Or does it mean that at 1,500 capacity it will atrract more than just Trof people?

Can you elaborate of the exact profile of each of these 1,500 people?

Can you assure me that they will be as quiet as mice at 3am, will not puke in my doorway, will not fight, will not wake me up.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

''Sustainable diversity is what really works - UK needs more of it''

Well it isn't sustainable as it is only planned to be open for two years whilt I intend living here for another twenty.

Besides, diversity is having people living in cities who like to also sleep.

There is this notion that city centre residents are partying and don't work. I work 60 hours a week so need my sleep.

You have got diversty in town anyway. Go out tonight and you can have a pint in the Britons Protection, a cocktail in Panacea, a starter at Pizza Hut, a main course at the Lowry, buy some trousers from Armani, a top from Oxfam.

We are talking about a 1,500 capacity club accross the street from peoples homes.

Simon BinnsSeptember 13th 2011.

Interesting discussion this. Makes me wonder if there'll be a similar protest when Oceana finally get round to putting their enormous nightclub in the Great Northern Warehouse.

2 Responses: Reply To This...
Kevin PeelSeptember 13th 2011.

That depends on the views of residents in the adjacent Great Northern Tower.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

You never know Mr Binns.

I guess that people at the Great Northern are used to noise given what is already on their doorstep so another place might not bother them. Who knows?

What I like about living in a democracy is that we are consultated on things such as this whereas I find it worrying where people think a business takes precedent over a resident when it comes to planning.

You get that it China where they just bulldozed peoples houses (whilst many where still in them) to make way for the Olympic Stadium.

Maybe we should just turn all apartment blocks into bars and incite the Rangers fans down every weekend. Seems like that is the 'buzzing' cty people want.

It's the city, duffusSeptember 13th 2011.

exactly

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Get real! Wear jeans in Spinningfields!

M/C in the mixSeptember 13th 2011.

Love to see this happen - no one with sense buys handbags at Mulberry's

Julie TurnerSeptember 13th 2011.

perhaps we could hear some more views from residents from other developments in the city

the Whalley RangerSeptember 13th 2011.

Netto closed, now turning into Co-op. Love it!

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Why is this seeming anger towards the Spinningfileds development.

There seems to be a lot of chips on shoulders that would take pleasure in local residents not being able to sleep and getting rid of 'stuffy shops and bars'. Why? What is their to fear from an Italian restaurant?

1 Response: Reply To This...
Little ItalySeptember 13th 2011.

Ask ManCon what they would think of yet another Italian in town

Julie TurnerSeptember 13th 2011.

the first proposal we read was the that it was going to be a live music event and staying open until 3am at weekends and 1am weekdays. We have one apartment in this area and another in a more livelier and busier area . My daughter lived in one of them and her choice was in the more livelier area my choice is this one near quay street, so yes people do live in this area for a reason, we know that its the 'city' and there are 'city' noises and people will tolerate that, so its not a NIMBY moment or 'you live in the city get over it ' moment. Thankyou to Kevin for your support

5 Responses: Reply To This...
there are no flats on quay streetSeptember 13th 2011.

there are no flats on quay street - certainly not across from quay house. What's your problem?

Saying it's not Nimbyism doesn't make it right...

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

No flats on Quay Street?

Rosetti is right accross the road as is Bauhaus! Unreal.

Besides, if 1,500 people spill out at 3am will they only make noise when they are directly opposite somewhere so if residents where say 30 yards to the elft they won't hear a pin drop?

Anyway, what is this now great crime of nimbyism. So what if I don't want to be woken at 3am on a Tuesday night by 1,500 pissheads. So what? I need more than 3 hours sleep.

I bumped into a bloke in the pub around the corner last night and he lives in Chorlton.

Bloody nimby. Why isn't he in a pub in his own back yard.

By definition of nimbys the only people who should be allowed to bars in town are local residents, anyone else who travels away from their own back yard is a nimby.

Julie TurnerSeptember 13th 2011.

yes there are apartments (we ve bought one) so thats says how much you know about this area

YardmanSeptember 13th 2011.

Come to Chorlton, mon. Me tell you, you is invited! Peace and Love

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

There are two blocks accross the road!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

People seem to be going on about the 'buzz' of the city centre but when they refer to the 'buzz' they seem to think being pissed at 4am and puking in the gutter, arguing, fighting etc is a buzzing city centre.

Buzzing city cntres are plenty of people working there, living there, shopping there, cafes, bars, restaurants, clubs, thetres, outdoor evets etc but to some the sight of a kebab wielding warriot at 4am is what it's all about. Class.

3 Responses: Reply To This...
Kevin PeelSeptember 13th 2011.

Spot on.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Age!

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Agree, we are not "booze Britain", or at least this is an image we don't want for Manchester. Sometimes there is more to life than raving in an underground carpark!

NeilSeptember 13th 2011.

Really don't see how people who live in Spinningfields say they moved there because it was a quietish part of town so therefore they don't want a nightclub isn't
NIMBYism. It's NIMBYism in its most classic form.

It's 30somethings who used to love going clubbing and raving and drinking and staying out till 4am (so bought somewhere closeish to all that) but have now grown up a bit so instead like nice meals, cocktails, maybe a few beers and then to bed at a reasonable hour.

There was a good article on ManCon a few months ago saying how Oldham Street used to be the exclusive part of town for shopping but it slowly became King Street and now it seemed to be moving more towards the Avenue. The same thing happens with nightlife, The next new place opens up a part of town that was never considered to be the place for bars and then it 'moves on' to the next place.

Let's face it. If this development was built somewhere else in Manchester you'd think it was great that there was a new live music venue and the next time Moby or whoever was in town you'd be getting tickets without the first thought of residents who lived a little bit closer.

2 Responses: Reply To This...
David GSeptember 13th 2011.

Neil. Let's face it. I wouldn't "think it's a great new live music venue" and I wouldn't "get tickets without the first thought to other residents" if it opened in another part of the city centre because (and this may come as a huge surprise to you judging by your previous posts), not everyone has the same tastes.

I find the attitude of "don't move into the city centre if you want some sleep" astonishing. I love this city but the only way it will grow into something more than a regional city is by encouraging diversity within the city centre.

This area has developed a unique family-driven character over the past few years. This character is something we should be looking to nurture, not destroy.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Moby palying at an underground car park! Ha ha ha!!

Your profiling of what is a city centre resident is all wrong sunshine.

Besides, comparing what used to the smart shopping street and what is now isn't comparable to what is a residential area. It is transient like a shopping street is it? By that token you are suggesting that these six year old apartments will be torn down in tow years amnd it will be bars and in five years it will be a college and in another two years will be an alll seater stadium etc.

Yes I do look back fondly to when town was dead after 7pm on a weekday and was a dark hovel but you know what it has changed. People LIVE here now so get over it.

Why should bars and clubs be tthe be all and end of of what they thing is a city?

You are out of date.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

This was supposed to be a 2,500 or so venue open to 5.30am during the week but hey presto this company is now at the forefront of flower shows and skating for toddlers!

Is it a nightclub, Women's Institute flower arranging club, toddlers playpen, creche or are the owners going to stick to what they know best? A full on club?

I have seen this before when a venue does this and after a few months it goes to being what it originally wanted to be.

Can you seriously imagine the WI doing flower arrnging in a dank underground car park or little Johnny rollerskating in a beerstenched glass strewn club?

I loved the Hacienda but would have taken my nephwe to rollerskate there at 9am on a Saturday morning. God knows what he might have picked up and eaten.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Well said, this is a perfect post. There is no way they will ever operate anything other than a club here, they are just saying this to get past the planning phase.
They might have the odd flower arranging session on a tuesday evening 4-6pm then that will be it! Perhaps bus a few grannies in from the local care home to make it look genuine......

1 Response: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Exactly.

The bloke must think we are thick.

After a few months they will say that they grannies aren't turning out for the doilly exhibitions, the children can't skate because of the broken beer bottles on the floor so to make ends meet we need mor club nights.

Why go to the expense of soundproofing just for the 'odd club night'?

JKDowlingSeptember 13th 2011.

Nimbys the lot of them

2 Responses: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Do you only go out within ten minutes of where you live or are you too a nimby?

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Anybody who goes to this club but doesn't live within ten minutes of it is by definition a nimby.

A nimby operates in other people's back yards. see.

it's the Trafford Centre hereSeptember 13th 2011.

More nightclubs in the sticks! Drink and drive to a club! Invert society, shop in the countryside, live in quiet centres of 2,5million+ conurbations.

You know it makes sense....

...not.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

There are so few flats around there no wonder there are only 50 objections.

3 Responses: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

85 objections. Only one person officially for it.

I would settle for 85-1 at football.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

85 objections. The average UK village has 67 dwellings so in effect you have a whole village and then some against one man.

Julie TurnerSeptember 13th 2011.

exactly thats why its low key

Town PlannerSeptember 13th 2011.

Manchester could have ended up like Detroit:

read this - it's educational:

http://shrinkingcities.com/detroit.0.html?&L=1

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

<) but have now grown up a bit so instead like nice meals, cocktails, maybe a few beers and then to bed at a reasonable hour.<

I know he hates City Centre residents over 30 and now I don't think Neil likes patrons of Man Cons advertisers either.

It is here where Editor Jon is simply wrong. It is a proposal for a 2000 capacity venue but a company whose current venues serve students. (see Simon Binns review)

It is not about any old night club. It is to be judged on its merits

I think people on here on here ought to tell us if they have involvement in late night economy businesses

And Simon Binns ....it is not a planning application for a A3 or 4 development, it is a licensing application. An Albert Shed style restaurant might well be welcome by local residents who Neil so much dislikes and ManCon actually depends on.

1 Response: Reply To This...
It's the city, duffusSeptember 13th 2011.

I hereby declare my involvement in the late night economy:

I love my beer!

You asked for it...

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Manchester College (MANCAT) is around there and they may be developing as MMU does. So, I wonder if there may be some expectation that more students may be coming around this area?
I do not know what will happen on the Granada site, but surely something is happening there too?

Simon BinnsSeptember 13th 2011.

You've lost me Anon...you do know I didn't write this piece?

Or are you referring to another piece?

NeilSeptember 13th 2011.

Believe me - I really like the few city-centre residents I know.

It's NIMBYs I dislike.

And snobs...so an Alberts Shed with their lovely mid-range organically sourced meals is OK but a nightclun with horrible, rowdy student-types is all wrong?

Let me try and make my position clear. There's a space that a business wants to develop to provide a venue which could well be a success. They appear to have addressed sound-proofing issues and I would guess would work with the Police and/or whoever on minimising anti-social behaviour. It would provide jobs, pay taxes and, hopefully, encourage further investment in the area. It might even have a few concerts on that I might go to. My thinking is that a few vocal residents who had unreasonable expectations that 'their' part of town would remain exactly as it is should not be able to block that.

5 Responses: Reply To This...
BingoSeptember 13th 2011.

Bingo!

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Ah finally the truth os out. Someone else with a chip on their shoulder.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Neil, Albert's Shed is not opposite my flat. What has Albert's shed got to do with it?

Let me make my position clear. The soundproofing keeps down some (not all) of the music levels from being heard outside. When they doors open and close to let people in and out guess what? Soundproofing means nothing unless you have two doors and a time lock. Guess what else? In most clubs the doors are always open including one or two fire exits so noise comes out.

Also, where do people go for a smoke? That's right. Outside in an area usually gated off outside a fire exit. So more noise.

Soundproofing does not stop pissheads shouting as they leave between midnight and 4am. The bloke showed us a dispersal route but. A dispersal route! So some pilled up or pissed bloke is going to follow a ceratin route home! There will be signs asking these same people to respect the local residents too. Ha!!

It is not what is inside the venue it is what noise is spilling out whilst I am trying to sleep midweek.

Guess what I do Neil? Like the owner of Trof I aprovide jobs, I create taxes and have invested in the area too but if I only get 3 hours sleep a night and can't function properly then these jonbs, taxes and further investments of mine are art risk.

Please explain to me why you want me and all residents to only sleep 3 hours a night and do the jobs we do just so 1500 people can get pissed?

I see that not one person in favour of this venue has praised it's so called intention to provide some playgroup rolller skating venue or for flower shows. Not one.

That is because you as well as I know that it is a sham and it's sole purpose is to become a full on nightclub.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

A 'few vocal residents'!!

85 people who like sleeping at night.

It is selfish out of towners with their nimbys attitudes that I despise. All for developments opposite other peopls homes such as those at Rosetti and Bauhaus.

That is a Nimby. Somebody who chooses to vomit their way around town rather than staying in their suburb and doing it there.

How do the police minimise anti sicial behaviour of 1,500 people exiting this club?

How much will it cost to put 40 policeman on duty outside between midnight and 4am?

I was at the meeting at no such police prescence was mentioned??

It doesn't matter if it is 1,500 students, 1,500 ex-cons, 1,500 sober people, 1,500 youths or 1,500 pensioners.

1,500 people spilling out at that time is stupid in this quiet part of town.

There seems to be some kind of inverted snobbery going on here Neil. People who live accross the road are not some stereotypical jumped up yuppies but medical professionals, office clerks, shopworkers, solicitors, mature students.

Just normal people like you Neil. I go to normal boozers, go to the footie etc. I work my bacside off and can't support my employees if I have had no sleep. What is wrong with that??

It just isn't going to work. Every time I get disturbed by this place I will be registering it with the council. If I can't sleep I'll be over there every night. If people are causing a disturbance on the way out I will phone the police. If they don't come I'll sort it out myself.

If it stops me carrying out my job properly I'll sue them.

Everybody is entitled to sleep.

NeilSeptember 13th 2011.

We're clearly going to disagree. I think it's a good venture and - frankly - laugh at NIMBY city-centre dwellers who complain that their immediate neighbourhood will be a noisy city-centre area.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

The biggest problem with only getting three hours sleep a night and sleep deprivation is the resulting effect on attention during the day, judgemnt during basic tasks, decision making, impairment of driving ability or ability to operate machinery.

It also has effects on visuospatial attention and gnerally risk is increased.

It is why sleep deprivation is used by dodgy countries on prisoners of war.

It can also cause psychiatric and physical deterioration.

The odd night is fine but in the mid to long term is debilitating.

No great for a surgeon living opposite a 1,500 venue.

1 Response: Reply To This...
It's the city, duffusSeptember 13th 2011.

surgeon - you are doing summit wrong. Go get a referral to an anti ageing/ anti stress clinic and for God's sake get a second home in the country...

Simon TurnerSeptember 13th 2011.

Last thing the city centre needs is another large capacity nightclub. How about a decent arts cinema with a more cutting-edge programme than Cornerhouse?? An experimental theatre space (Green Room RIP)??

2 Responses: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

or a subterrainian Carluccio's - appartently, it's what the residents want so why not open one?

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

subterranean, oops

NeilSeptember 13th 2011.

Of course - a cinema with an even more obscure programme thn the Cornerhouse! That'll get the punters in.

11 Responses: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Ah yes, that wouldn't fulfil the necessary criteria of Neil's City. Maybe we can reach a compromise and sell them some cheap booze to get tanked up before the obscure screenings start.

That'll get some much-needed revenue from the 'punters'.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

'get the punters in'?

From where Neil.

Oh from outside town, so nimbys in other words who get slaughtered in other people's back yards and not their own.

Typical Nimby attitude Neil. Stay out of town, don't be a nimby.

NeilSeptember 13th 2011.

I've frickin' heard it all now.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

So are you a nimby or do you only party within ten minutes walk of where you live?

the Whalley RangerSeptember 13th 2011.

Neil your doing well...

...time for the urban professionals that can't keep up with the city's pace to turn into suburban professionals?

If noise is their prime concern, why not live up to their most important desire and do the right thing?

Otherwise, their case will be lost sooner or later and a new generation of kids will show them where to stick their Nimbyism.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Remind me Whalley. What is Neil doing well?

Discouraging a variety of communities and families from living in the city centre?

Completely neglecting the vact that this variety of people play a hugely important part in the economy of the city?

Encouraging a proposal that is completely out of character with the surrounding area?

Calling anyone who won't agree with him a nimby?

NeilSeptember 13th 2011.

I tend to go out to a local pub about 350 yards away. I never hear it even though it's quite lively/busy. I also go into Manchester quite often and would hope that I never inconvenience anyone with noise.

And I'm not just calling people who disagree with me NIMBYs just to annoy them (although it is quite amusing!) but because in my opinion that's exactly what they are.

And arguing that there should be a diverse range of businesses in a city-centre tends to negate the point. This would be one of the diverse businesses bringing something different to the city-centre. Not all development has to be family centred.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Neil, so what is the point of a planning application being made public if anybody who rejects it or aspects therein is just verbally attacked and and is branded a 'nimby'.

It is a legal requirement that residents close by have to be consulted so are we all supposed to agree wholeheartedly and not have an opinion?

If it is in my backyard and I don't like it I am branded a nimby! Can't win unless I approve of everythibg. A bit like the old Soviet Union.

Now, what is the word for somebody who doesn't live anywhere near here but sticks his nose in and offers an opinion on what won't affect him?

It is like me rejecting somebodys extension in Truro or fighting for a Tesco to be built in Okehampton. In other words if it is not your backyard it is not your business, just as it isn't mine to tell your neighbour to open up a brothel next door to you.

Are you a JIMBY (Just In My BackYard)?

Such people seek to deny all people a certain right or privilege, but make exceptions for themselves when they need the right or privilege.

Simon TurnerSeptember 13th 2011.

Neil - Why not an art-house cinema? Does the city centre 'culture' offering have to revolve around booze and shopping? You say about a 1500 capacity nightclub "This would be one of the diverse businesses bringing something different to the city-centre. ". You really think that?

NeilSeptember 13th 2011.

My last comment on this. I think the people here are the worst kind of NIMBY because they chose to move to the city-centre and are now complaining because they felt that 'their' part of Manchester should be exempt from the development that occurs in city-centres. And yes, public consultations do occur, but I honestly believe that the objectionsists posiiton is weakened because they are being - as I said - NIMBYs!

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

NEIL said ''This would be one of the diverse businesses bringing something different to the city-centre.''

You are damned right it is diverse. A childrens roller disco come flower arranging club come full on 1,500 capacity pilled up club venue!!

Yep and if you believe it will seriously be all three then my oh my.

It will be an interesting meeting on Thursday.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

How can this encourage "investment in the area", it will be demolished in 2 years!

1 Response: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Yes I see that there has been zero development in Spinningfields and this club will bring new office blocks, shops, maybe on a place called The Avenue, maybe it will bring restaurants, a gym, a big screen, an ice rink, apartments etc.

Oh wait, they all happened in the last five years.

Investment is not some divot getting off it on £30 of alcopops and a couple of pills.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Sorry Simon it was this bit I was referring to and the ref to your visit to the Deaf Insitutute ought to have been deleted.

>. You could argue that a city centre locality is more likely to be earmarked for this sort of DEVELOMENT than a suburb, and that people living in a city centre should appreciate that.<

Nothing is earmarked It's mixed development all round and you can certainly get A3 permission (cafes to bars etc) for almost anything. But as has been said already there is a sort of informally understood zoning.

I live above a bar in the Gay Village north of Whitworh Street as do a number of other residents including some Chinese OAPS. And recently there have been new bars start up without objections because we know they will be well controlled and intervention from the enforcement authorities (now called by MCC 'Public Protection') can be invoked. if their conditions are broken.

The issue in some places is street noise. This is in fact very difficult to tackle as it is a police matter. NQ people know all about the big centre they host... the Printworks. Students returning to their halls digs etc have been an issue elsewhere.

Incidentally I believe the situation in Spinningfields itself is that the public realm and letting is controlled by the developer . Are there any post midnight operators

4 Responses: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

There aren'y any post midnight operators in Spinningfields. I think Walkabout opnes late but that is up the road.

Everywhere else closes. I lived in the Village too so expected noise but got fed up after somebody was knifed outside my flat and just the trouble going on most nights because people couldn't hold their drink.

I moved over here as it is a different atmosphere and lots of older people.

You get the odd thing like a bloke having a slash up my groundfloor flat window last Thursday and syringes lying about near the gardens but that's life I suppose.

Spinningfileds is private land and has their own security team 24/7 so no doubt they will be involved and in theory can prevent these clubbers from dispersing through Spinningfields itself.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Spinningfields security don't do anything to stop people leaving Mojo dispersing through the area at 4 in the morning shouting & screaming...

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

This is different as people will be dispersed irectly onto the mound in front of the big screen according to the owner and so away from Quay Street.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

So then the ones heading for Salford will go down Hardman Street and right by Leftbank.
It's not only Bauhaus & Rosetti that would be affected.

Gary RatcliffeSeptember 13th 2011.

here's an idea .... all rent an apartment then you can move around as the trends change.. bars take longer than 6 monts to get up and running so you could be well on your way to the perfect spot.

4 Responses: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Gary, most people in this block own apartments and are not renting.

We can't move away if this place opens up accross the road.

This club is here for two years only so it is the club that is transient, not residents.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Does the owner of the bar not have venues in a few different areas.

Hey let's be a bar owner and put bars in happenning places and then move to others when they get going.

Same thing Ratty.

Gary RatcliffeSeptember 13th 2011.

I have owned my flat in the NQ for over ten yrs. I have gradually seen the area develop..
(The quality of the people 'pissing in the door ways' has improved immensely.... Having said that its still Pi*s. lol)

Its in the interest of the whole comunity to keep the area 'working'

Residents want to keep the area civilised and nighttime business owners need to think a bit longterm and encourage the areas characteristic/charm.

Everyone needs to work together and the area will prosper for everyone.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Gary, the area is working and is completely unrecognisable to what is was just a few years ago.

This isn't about regeneration! The area is prospering very well but I can't see how a 1,500 capacity underground car park cnightclub will help me prosper. Now, it may help teh loaded owner prosper a bit more but not me.

In fact, it well certainly not help me prosper if I go to work on three hours sleep.

Puke, empty bottles, half eaten kebabs and pilled up clubbers will not generally enhanve the asethetics of the area either.

The night time business owner is not thinking 'long term' as you suggest. The owner wants to change the car park into something else, they approached him and the thing is being pulled down in two years. Now you tell me if this isn't coming in, making a quick buck and disappearing into the sunset in two years time.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

I live in Chorlton, can we have a night club please if one is going spare?

Urban MagritteSeptember 13th 2011.

A city is a city, the countryside is the countyside.

1 Response: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

That's a great observation.

ErgoSeptember 13th 2011.

Ceci n'est pas le countyside!

Hero
John NuttallSeptember 13th 2011.

It's a bit rich for Councillor Kevin to complain about the threat of clubbers pissing in doorways when his council have neglected to provide anywhere else for them to piss.

3 Responses: Reply To This...
Kevin PeelSeptember 13th 2011.

This is another issue I'm tackling, though why they can't just use the bathrooms in the venues before they leave I'm not quite sure.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Kevin's council are just being downright mean aren't they. Neglectful fiends the lot of them.

John for the time-being why don't you be a generous chap and offer your doorway for those poor, heavy-bladdered clubbers to piss in?

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Exactly.

Now, what if I wanted a piss but instead of having one in my flat I walked accross to this club and pissed up his front door in front of the bouncers?

I am sure in the spirit of things he wouldn't mind and after all it is only returning the favour.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Dear Anon... I used to go to a club in Chorlton. How did you manage to mislay it?

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Dear John I piss before I leave don't you?

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Just stay out of town Neil and let us get on with it. You original view was that over 30 city centre residents like to eat out in (ManCon) advertised restaurants and hence their views did not count. They were unpersons.

9 Responses: Reply To This...
NeilSeptember 13th 2011.

Errr - Just re-read my first comment (the very first one up there) and said notheing of the sort. It was a comment about 30something age city-centre residents complaining about nightclubs. Nothing about ManCon advertised restaurants.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Good shout. Interested in what is going on a few miles away and not in his own back yard and telling people what they should do.

Stay out of town By coming into town you are preventinng bars and clubs from opening up in your own back yard. Keep it local sunshine.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

How about the 50 plus ones or the seven under tens we have here Neil?

The developer is the worst kindy of nimby as he doesn't live here but sticks his club not in his backyard but that of others.

The trouble is these club owners hate development and can't stand the fact that things move on and people live here.

Fancy being surprised when you stick a 1,500 venue in a residential area.

Town is not controlled by clubs and bars but some on here feel that a club has to take priority over anything.

the Whalley RangerSeptember 13th 2011.

Excuse me Anon sunshine, but Manchester IS my back yard!

I was part-educated here, I spent most of my working life here, am culturally active here, pay taxes etc. and I made a decision:

- I wanted to park the cars on a drive, not on a 20k each lot in a multistory in town

- I wanted my own 5 bins :-)

- I wanted to play football in my own garden.

- I wanted to be able to open my bedroom window at night without experiencing traffic/ noise/ looters.

You - as in you personally - cannot have that (unless you happen to be Ian Simpson on the top floor of the Hilton)!

I wish city centre dwellers would realise that city centre living comes with limitations and does not entitle them to discourage divers activities a city centre of merit(not the suburbs) should provide.

the Whalley RangerSeptember 13th 2011.

Excuse me Anon sunshine, but Manchester IS MY back yard.

I was part educated here, I spent most of my working life here, am culturally active here, pay taxes etc. and I made a decision:

- I wanted to park the cars on a drive, not on a 20k per lot in a multistorey in town

- I wanted my own 5 bins :-)

- I wanted to play football in my own garden.

- I wanted to be able to open my bedroom window at night without experiencing traffic/ noise/ looters.

You - not as in you personally - cannot have that (unless you happen to be Ian Simpson on the top floor of the Hilton)!

I wish city centre dwellers would realise that city centre living comes with limitations and does not entitle them to discourage divers activities a city centre of merit (not the suburbs) should provide.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Why does city centre living come with limitations? Imposed by who exactly? People in suburbs poking their noses in?

Manchester is not your backyard. Your backyard is your immediate environs.

As fot the limitations well sure I don't have a driveway, I don't have a garden, don'want a driveway, don't want a garden.

The suburbs are noisier because I don't live off a bypass, don't have neighbours mowing lawns, don't have children booting afootball oer my fence. The suburbs have the limitations son.

Define a 'city centre'. To you it seems it equals offices, shops and clubs. Anything else is irrelevant.

If you take moment you willsee that we are not opposed to noise and are not opposed to bars because, get this, we live in a vibrant city and we love it! Hurray! We love vibrancy.

My place looks onto the John Street Hotel and they have parties on their terrace and it great. Guess what? It is noisy. Great. It is life going on around me.

If they wanted to build a pub accross the road then fine. But not a 1,500 capacity all hours club.

As for limiting disverse activities well let;s see about diversity. Jenson Button driving his F1 car down Deansagte, the Christmas Markets, the Pride Parade, concerts at Castlefield.

Now, tell me sunshine just what is so very diverse about a sweaty basement car park opening until 3am as a club?

Nothing diverse about that is there? It is one of the least diverse things there is. Ask the owner why he is doing it. Money maybe?

I don't stick my nose into Whalley Range so butt out of my area and stick to your own.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Whalley Ranger, I will make sure that I fully support the superstore on Alexandra Park.

Nothing to do with me really but anyone who complains is a nimby and is blocking progress.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Diversity?

Diversity is people now living in the city centre. That is diversity, not a student club.

the Whalley RangerSeptember 13th 2011.

Cheers guys, it was a pleasure.

Stephen HoughtonSeptember 13th 2011.

This must be one of the most ill-conceived and irresponsible, low budget, cardboard and paste proposals ever put before a planning committee.
How it ever got a second hearing is beyond comprehension so shame and blame goes to you MCC.
The pre-fab roller rink or bowling alley monstrosity is a joke ditto the planned OAP led events such as crochet evenings, embroidery classes and flower arranging exhibitions - just not swayed people.
Are we supposed to take this whole matter seriously or is it just juvenile provacation?

1 Response: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

The developer said at the last meeting that after listening to all the residents that he would probably not go ahead with this but a few weeks later he submits it again!

There is no trust.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Trof are good operaters. I have seen them develop over the years, and they have always done so in a responsible way! Good luck to em on this one, there are too many big players in the City centre who really don't care. Trof running the show from Quay St would def be an asset to this great City.

3 Responses: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

How good are Trof at childrens Roller Skating competitions and Flower Shows?

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

Running what 'show' exactly.

As they are good and responsible operaters tell me whow they will ensure that 1,500 people make no noise at 3am.

Their owner didn't have an answer.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

''Joel Wilkinson, who operates the Trof bars, is keen to stress that he has taken residents’ concerns into account.''

He also told us he would 'probaly not' go ahead with this venture.

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

As fot the flower shows can Trof explain just how on earth flower they can hold a flower show in an underground car park with zero natural light?

They will not be shown at their best and will quickly deteroriate without natrural light!!

A flower show in amongst breezeblocks? Flowers are shown in natural daylight whether indoors or outdoors.

What experience do they have of Flower Shows?

AnonymousSeptember 13th 2011.

''DJ-led events' will only take place around 8 times a month''

Yeah right.

1 Response: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 14th 2011.

thats every friday and saturday then

Hero
HowieSeptember 14th 2011.

Hmm. Just 8 DJ led events a month. That's 25% of the time! And how does the claim that flower shows will be staged compensate for the DJ led events. It's not like we are trying to get an average noise/disruption level for the month is it? You can't sensibly argue that just because you've had the entire weekend disprupted you should then rejoice at the opening of a flower show the following day. I'm a big fan of Spinningfields and really enjoy their initiatives to animate and populate the estate. The Oast House, for example,is a truly witty addition to the site. But this is just wrong.

AnonymousSeptember 14th 2011.

Howie, if you approached a local flower society (as I have just done) the best way to show flowers is ideally outside so that the natural dayligt shows off the vibrancy of colours as nature intended.

Alternatively you have it indoors but within a glass structure so that natural daylight can bring out the best in teh flowers.

To do it in an underground car park with zero lighting is not of any use whatsoever. Also I was advised that after four hours the flowers will start to deteriorate, albeit slowly so nobody would want to spend time and effort preparing the flowers only for their pride and joy to start to wither after a few hours.

Now, there is special lighting that you can get to help keep them going and these cn be bought at specialist garden centres, but aren't particularly good for the human eye!

Has this fellow done his research or is it a throw away 'oh stick down that we will do flower shows or something'?

The lady from the horticultural club doesn't think many of her memebers will show in such conditions nor in the city centre as it is not within their catchchment plus she didn't think a nightclub was appropriate either.

2 Responses: Reply To This...
Hero
HowieSeptember 14th 2011.

I'm sure you're right about the flowers!

AnonymousSeptember 14th 2011.

Howie, we have a florist attending tomorrow so we will put this to him.

AnonymousSeptember 14th 2011.

It doesn't mention anywhere in this article this application was REFUSED a few months ago. The applicant then changed the opening times from 5am-3am for this new application. Wow what a difference that 2 hours makes.
The council is trying to encourage a "mixed use" city, but yet they don't consider local residents, seems very biased to me. Local residents pay council tax to support city life and culture, take all the residents out of the equation and what do you have? No council tax payments and minimal support for the city.
Let's see how many roller discos and flower events they have once they have sweet talked the planning committee, I suspect not many.

1 Response: Reply To This...
Simon BinnsSeptember 14th 2011.

No, it doesn't, but it did mention it in the last piece we wrote about this, which is here: www.manchesterconfidential.co.uk/…/Trof-Plans-Huge-Event-Space-in-Quay-House-Basement…

FurFoxAcheSeptember 14th 2011.

The Ministry of Sound in London is having the exact opposite problem at the moment. An established club in London, the local council want to build 2 residential tower blocks yards from the club. They are worried they will get closed down due to noise complaints once people start living there.

Stephen HoughtonSeptember 14th 2011.

Anon.
"Trof are good operaters. I have seen them develop over the years, and they have always done so in a responsible way!.........there are too many big players"

The manner in which this particular individual has conducted himself during the planning and consultation phase would lead one to believe that he is neither responsible or trustworthy and has little or no regard for the needs or concerns of the local community.
To argue that this ridiculous scheme should go ahead simply because he manages a low asset company is complete nonesense.

2 Responses: Reply To This...
PaulSeptember 14th 2011.

Well said Stephen.

AnonymousSeptember 14th 2011.

He is there to make as much money as he can so why would he be concerned about me getting sleep before being up at 5.30am to begin my shift?

DagSeptember 14th 2011.

Residents were also surprised when the alcohol license was granted as noone recalls being consulted. All felt a little sneaky

1 Response: Reply To This...
AnonymousSeptember 14th 2011.

The owner also said he was surprised to get it too at the meeting we had with him.

DagSeptember 14th 2011.

Coincidentally a kebab shop application has just gone in on New Quay Street...

5 Responses: Reply To This...
PaulSeptember 14th 2011.

See if the planned "dispersal policy" will stop some drunk getting his kebab at 3am, I think not.

AnonymousSeptember 14th 2011.

Yes I noticed that too. Apparently it was guarnteed that people will be told on leaving this club that they have to walk up towards Deansagte and will not be allowed to go down Quay Street towards Salford (although not sure how one achieve that).

This kebab shop around the corner will ensure that that will be the first port of call for many which is right next to my apartment.

It's the city, duffusSeptember 14th 2011.

Close your windows dammit you won't hear anything!

If you still do, sue your builder for not constructing to British standard!

Let everyone else have a kebab in town for crying out load - there is not a single good take-away in the entire area!

DagSeptember 14th 2011.

Funny in summer I like to have windows open.

Sh't homes for sh't peopleSeptember 14th 2011.

Building Regs Approved Document E: resistance to the passage of sound - that is what's required here, duffus.

DagSeptember 14th 2011.

I'd say there was very little other passing trade for it apart from the proposed quay house site. And as you say it'll make our problem if quay house goes ahead worse. Although trade will fall off when QH goes so odd move.

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