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Which way are you going to vote on the BIG ISSUE for Manchester this year, and perhaps for many years?

Confidential does MORI poll. Which way will you vote on the Transport Innovation Bid (congestion charge) referendum?

Published on December 3rd 2008.


Which way are you going to vote on the BIG ISSUE for Manchester this year, and perhaps for many years?

The Results

Yes: - 60%
No: - 40%

The Transport Innovation Fund (congestion charge) debate has been going on since life crawled out of the primeval soup at the dawn of time. But now - bring on the trumpets - we’re on the last leg of the whole process.

It’s time to decide.

This is what’s written on the ballot papers being sent out to 1.9m voters in Greater Manchester. The Transport Innovation Fund involves ‘both major investment in public transport improvements in Greater Manchester and a weekday, peak time only, congestion charging scheme. Congestion charging would only be introduced after 80% of the public transport improvements are in place and not before the summer of 2013.

So depending on your views, we’re talking £3bn investment and massive improvements. Or an aggressive tax, little improvement and an economic millstone around the region’s neck for decades.

Big stuff. We reckon there’s no room for don’t knows here.

Get posting those ballot papers .

But in the meantime vote yay or nay for your preference. Let’s see how our opinion poll compares with the actual result.

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119 comments so far, continue the conversation, write a comment.

GezzabelleDecember 3rd 2008.

Do they all say I hereby declare that I am Jonathan G Schofield, because thats not my name?

Jonathan G SchofieldDecember 3rd 2008.

It's not my name either.

WayneDecember 3rd 2008.

This may be the only chance I get to vote...not recieved my papers yet

Dizzy RascalDecember 3rd 2008.

They Call me blood... they call me rudebwoy... they call me my yute... cos am a fly yute... THATS NOT MY NAME... THATS NOT MY NAME!!

WayneDecember 3rd 2008.

So Dizzy, is that a yes vote then

Dizzy RascalDecember 3rd 2008.

safe blood... I actually live in LANDAN blood so i cant vote. But the LANDAN congestion charge hasnt made LANDAN any less congested so i cant see it working here. Its just another way for the goverment to take money off you, i mean people dont drinve into manchester at 9am for a laugh, they do it because they have to innit blood and we all know the met is a pile of mash seed innit dreddy. But why do i know man am jussa raskal... dizzy raskal.... thats me blood clart name!!

Sir Howard BernsteinDecember 3rd 2008.

After careful consideration and weighing up all the options, I think I will ask the wife what I should do.

Henry VIIIDecember 3rd 2008.

I'll ask my lovely wife Anne Boleyn too. But if she gets it wrong....

David BeckhamDecember 3rd 2008.

I'd ask my wife but I haven't got the goldens to...........

Ashley ColeDecember 3rd 2008.

I'd ask my wife but she'd just make a song and a dance about it....

Sitting BullDecember 3rd 2008.

I'd ask my wife but she'd just ask, 'how'

Gwyneth PaltrowDecember 3rd 2008.

I'd ask my husband but he'd ask me to vote Yellow

Muhammed al-FayedDecember 3rd 2008.

I'd ask my girlfriend but she's not old enough to vote yet

AnonymousDecember 3rd 2008.

All of the people above, that joke is rubbish.

AnonymousDecember 3rd 2008.

I'd ask my wife but she's never told me her name

emma graceDecember 3rd 2008.

ooooohh it's 50/50

Anthony McCaulDecember 3rd 2008.

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!

ballerinaDecember 3rd 2008.

I vote yes yes yes, we need a better transport system and less traffic.

Dissociative Identity Disorder Dave,December 3rd 2008.

I'm in two minds what to vote.

Steve AustinDecember 3rd 2008.

That's a Six Billion Dollar Question

Mark TwainDecember 3rd 2008.

By trying we can easily endure adversity. Another man's, I mean.

Kevin KeeganDecember 3rd 2008.

I would love it! Really love it!

Lady FregusonDecember 3rd 2008.

What a silly old man - thought he had a vote. LOL

Samuel GoldwynDecember 3rd 2008.

Include me out.

ShylockDecember 3rd 2008.

It looks like it's split down the middle 60:40

Frankie HowardDecember 3rd 2008.

Nay! Nay! a thousand times Nay!

Prisoner Cell Block HDecember 3rd 2008.

We can't vote

William ShakespearDecember 3rd 2008.

My dearest Anne has done both, as my thoughts were withe a middsummer dream I doeth have in the nearest past.

Ali GDecember 3rd 2008.

wot iz zis stuff all about anyway? I iz not gonna vote for some idiot that keeps avin a TIF wiv sumwun who wants to stop me riding ma wheels in to town for a fiver each day!!!! its not appinin man ....it's coz i iz blak innit!?

AnonymousDecember 3rd 2008.

Looks like someone has found out that you can delete the cookie and vote many times... It matters not, there's no way this will get through, unless some votes go missing.

AnonymousDecember 3rd 2008.

ANYONE VOTING YES IS A COMPLETE MORON

Simon MoranDecember 3rd 2008.

I vote yes

Kevin MoranDecember 3rd 2008.

I'm a Moran too and I vote yes.

AnonymousDecember 3rd 2008.

I just personally moved the no vote forward 2 % in under a minute just by clicking on it repeatedley so this poll is a complete waste of time and is not accurate at all. We all know the majority of people are voting NO on this despite what all you yes voters might like to kid yourselves. Face it, the working people of this city will not let this disgrace go ahead so just give it up.

beeDecember 3rd 2008.

i honestly cannot understand how anyone can think TIF is a good idea. Think for yourselves, don't listen to the lies, don't pay attention to the ads.

EditorialDecember 3rd 2008.

Good lad anonymous. I bet you're a barrel of laughs in a party.

EditorialDecember 3rd 2008.

Good lad anonymous. I bet you're a barrel of laughs in a party.

WayneDecember 3rd 2008.

I say, I say, did you repeat yourself there, I mean repeat yourself.

Misery gutsDecember 3rd 2008.

I'm voting yes...it's easy to be negative. And TIF is the future

Champion the Wonder HorseDecember 3rd 2008.

Neigh, neigh and thrice neigh! (Or should I be Frankie Howerd too?)

Mr EdDecember 3rd 2008.

........Champion the Wonder Horse,As lomg as you get your oats it matters not.

thequeenscheeseDecember 3rd 2008.

can someone tell me how im supposed to get all the tools from my van to work on the f**ckin train the from the station to the job? and unlike according to the posters etc, i will jot be traveling for free out of the hours it could cost me £35 a week is this fair just to go to work isnt fuel expensive enough,and parking on top, my wage isnt great but unlike office workers i cannot go on the train when will someone stand up for construction workers (who will be improving the public transport system) so i could end up working 2 days for the privelage of getting to work its a joke, ban tail gaters and the school run put mini buses on instead like the usa where the bus calls at thier home get the road workers to work around the clock shifts 24hrs on busy heavily used roads to get them fixed quicker, get lorrys to work off peak, bus lanes are useless theres just an empty lane in the mornings and evenings this causes tail backs not the people earning an honest living, yes some could catch the bus/train/tram and maybe they should, but us builders cant we need our tools and vans for our jobs, and what about people traveling to manc from other cities have they been asked to vate it affects them just as much as us who live here, make the congestion charge fair and maybe poeple will take it on!!!!!

Battered codpieceDecember 3rd 2008.

If I remotely believed that they would do what they say, I would vote yes, of course. They won't. Any charge will go into general revenue and you will still be packed in like sardines on a '70s built tin can or left standing on the platform as now, with the fares rising and rising above inflation as ever. With each inflatory fare rise over twelve years to my certain knowledge there's been a lot of talk of wonderful investment, great breakthroughs, new trains - I've not seen one single new train, services and overcrowding have consistently got worse. Let's take Oldham council as an example, so avid for Metrolink to replace the Oldham loop trains that I think they must be being paid in sexual favours. Now look at Oldham Mumps station, a decent, well enineered building allowed to go rot, and only accessible by walking across an abandoned car park, struggling into some bushes and then walking through two separate, piss-smelling underpasses designed by and for muggers and rapists. People, you could have fixed all that for one hundredth of the cost of Metrolink and retained a mainline station that links up with the rest of the country. No, we'd rather spend tens of millions to get a 'super' tram that has terrible reliability problems, double the fare per mile of the railway and no cross-ticketing, and which buggers up the emininetly sensible loop line that means you're currently able to travel clockwise and anticlockwise from Victoria through Rochdale, Oldham, and all points between. And the day I actually see a politician struggling onto the ****ty system I have to ride every day is the day I may begin to believe they will actually improve it rather than simply milking me every time I have to use my car. But do go ahead and vote yes, then come back in ten years and show me the platinum=plated transport system that will apparently be created from a charge which its proponents claim will be paid by practically no-one.

SausagesDecember 3rd 2008.

People of Manchester, you are surrounded by idiots. Yesterday there was a delay on the trams because one broke down at St Peter's Sq. On a tram stuck behind I heard someone say "they've never spent a penny on these trams, its a disgrace". When we got off the tram I heard them saying "well, that's a definite no vote from me then."Lets put this clearly - if you vote yes, the trams will be improved you dolt! They wont learn a lesson from your actions, you thick-headed fusspot.Cheers.

Michael BarrymoreDecember 3rd 2008.

I asked my friends for advice but they are all in the pool at the moment.

Citizens Advice CentreDecember 3rd 2008.

Please don't ask us.

AnonymousDecember 3rd 2008.

I doubt very much that the revenue will actually be used for the stated purposes. Apart from that, a yes vote will merely move the congestion into the suburbs as people try and find parking outside the charging zone. People like me - I cannot face a 45 min walk to the nearest bus stop, then catch the once-an-hour bus (if it comes) to Altrincham, then a tram in. Much easier to drive and park centrally (or in front of someone's house outside the zone if the charge comes in). It's not like I live in the back of beyond either, only 5 mins from M6/M56 and 15 mins drive to Altrincham.

AnonymousDecember 3rd 2008.

as a business owner i will be voting *NO*in fact, if there was a box saying "HELL NO" it would be even more appropriate...

LesleyDecember 3rd 2008.

To the people that are voting yes, do you drive into the centre or even own a car? Are the Yes men and women all in easy reach of public transport? It's all very well voting yes when it's not you who are going to financially strapped

SiDecember 3rd 2008.

I wouldn't be directly affected, but will be firmly voting "No".1. Why are we giving public money to private firms without guarantees of what it would be spent on? How do we ensure that not just the profitable routes are maintained?2. We have no guarantees that fares will not rise. The "I'm voting Yes because I want cheaper bus fares" is a blatant lie.If the tax does get cars off the road, I don't want us to be stuck with a huge loan that we will all pay for via our council tax.Until someone can guarantee that the above won't happen, I think that to vote Yes would be naive at best.Remember this council's track record before you vote.

StevenDecember 3rd 2008.

Where does this '3bn investment' come from? As I understand it (from the MEN), it's 2.75bn, of which 318m would be spent setting up the congestion charge, so that's less than 2.5bn by my calculations which would ACTUALLY be spent on public transport - VOTE NO!

RobDecember 3rd 2008.

Will the NOs be saying the same if we reject it and 6 months down the line liverpool or birmingham walk up and take the circa £3bn to spend on transport in their cities?!?It's got to be a YES if manchester wants to move forward!

Harold Wilsons Pipe CleanerDecember 3rd 2008.

Rob, Is that the Birmingham which is getting £600 million for the New Street station re-vamp (£350 million more in one go that the TIF is spending on the whole of GM)? If Manchester votes "NO", so will the residents of any city. Tolls can only be brought in through bribery or dictact,

AnonymousDecember 3rd 2008.

Do we really want to be linked to all and sundry. eg Didsbury will be linked to the airport via...Wythenshawe. Also, one of the adverts saying vote yes is along the lines of 'Want to feel safer on buses and trams - then vote yes'. So basically if you vote no then it's your own fault if you get assaulted or mugged. Surely this kind of thing should be in place regardless.

Black puddingDecember 3rd 2008.

I am voting no, but purely because I live north of Bury. We have no buses that take us into Manchester presently and according to the blurb that we received about the improvements to public transport, everything stops at Bury. There is no life apparantly beyond there (actually thats probably a debate in itself!)and no recommendations to improve transport from here. So, how do I get to my place of work which is within the 'inner sanctum'?? The people I know who are voting yes say that it is to protect their childrens futures. What they dont say is that they dont need to pass any boundaries, so therefore they wont be affected. It's easy to be 'green' when it doesnt cost you anything.

JoeDecember 3rd 2008.

"I'm voting Yes because I want cheaper bus fares" - eh? No-one has guaranteed that will happen. More likely that when we've all been taxed off the road, Stagecoach will jack the fares up and screw us all. Then we all revert back to our cars as that's become the cheaper option and lo and behold, we're back to where we are now, but all paying a lot more for the same thing....

PaulDecember 3rd 2008.

Black Pudding, I'm voting No to protect my childrens futures - protect them from having to leave their fantastic city due to the huge tax burden that will be placed on the Greater Manchester population.

VelocityDecember 4th 2008.

@Lesley: Yes, I'll be voting YES and no I don't own a car. Doesn't mean I don't have a say about the kind of city I want to live in though, and I'd like one with safer, greener streets and cleaner air. @Anonymous, 15 mins drive from Altrincham. Maybe you could drive to Altrincham and then get the tram? Maybe a couple of days a week you could cycle to Altrincham? Blackpudding, maybe you could drive to Bury and then get the tram? So many people are talking like their cars are going to be taken away from them and they'll be forced to use (the current) public transport system for the whole journey.@thequeenscheese: Maybe on the first day of a job you and a couple of workmates could drive there with your tools, sharing the cost of fuel, parking and congestion charge. Maybe you could lock up your tools at the site and find an alternative travel option until the job's finished? We all make choices about where we live and where we work and how we get between the two. With significant investment in better public transport then other choices become available to people who currently believe they have no option but to drive into a congested city centre at peak times. Anyone who continues to make that choice will still be able to do so, but it'll cost you a bit more, giving you an incentive to at least consider a more sustainable option. If you can't make the whole journey by public transport, then why not park and ride or car share? So many of the cars in standing traffic I pass on my bike every morning and afternoon are occupied by 1 person looking really miserable - get some mates together or make some new ones, share the cost, turn the radio up and cheer up!

DigDecember 4th 2008.

Why don't they start improving public transport anyway? If they are showing a genuine intent before it goes to vote surely they will get the positive vote they want. Unless that happens I think there may be too many people doubting where the congestion charge money will go to vote yes. It'll be a close vote, I think, however, with a little pre vote encouragement it could be a huge yes.

SiDecember 4th 2008.

Good point there Dig, one that i've asked myself on many issues, however that's never been the policy of any government. It's always tax first then fail to deliver the promised return. So from experience, not cynicism, that's why I'll be voting "No" this time. Table a more detailed agenda however, one where the figures truly add up and the facts are presented without the lies and spin and I'll gladly re-consider.

SiDecember 4th 2008.

@ Velocity - You're response is typical of the selfish "Yes" voters. ie. I won't have to pay so bring it on. Your comments directed at "thequeenscheese" are laughable - i take it you've never been self employed? We don't all make choices about where we live/work - we work where where the work takes us, and it's not presently (or likely to be) possible to take all the required tools on public transport. The result will be that we pass the cost directly on to the consumer - consider what happens next time you need to call someone to sort your plumbing/electrics/PC and it's suddenly gone up by £15 or so (or whatever the price will truly be).

Eric CantonaDecember 4th 2008.

When the seagulls follow the trawler, they know that pride comes before a fall, so can winter be far off.

Doris DayDecember 4th 2008.

Que Sera, Sera.

AnonymousDecember 4th 2008.

If you're a true Macunian and really care about our future prospects, there's only one way to vote - "VOTE NO". I've heard nothing from the "yes" camp that can't be whittled down to pure selfishness.

SiDecember 4th 2008.

@Rob; If Liverpool and/or Birmingham decide to tax themselves to death (as Edinburgh previously rejected) in 6 months time, more fool them. At least the country will be laughing at them rather than at Manchester. VOTE NO to this regressive TAX !!!

SiDecember 4th 2008.

"ANYONE VOTING YES IS A COMPLETE MORON" - Whilst you're comments are rather tactless, I couldn't agree with you more Anonymous. Anyone in favour of the ludicrous TIF bid is either a cockney, scouser, Lie-bour party supporter, member of the Sir 'Dick' Leese fan club or someone else who desperately wants to see Manchester fall on its own sword. Let common sense prevail... VOTE NO

WandsyDecember 4th 2008.

I think I'll vote yes now. The no vote lot on here seen almost insane. i bet half the pants are from that weird Nazi nutter Sean Corker

WandsyDecember 4th 2008.

Actually does that Sean Corker have a job? What is his beef with the congestion charge that makes it so personal.

Freud on the Clapham OmnibusDecember 4th 2008.

Sat next to that Mr Corker on the Clapham Omnibus once. His extreme personal hygiene issues may explain his deep-seated loathing on not being in his personal stinking 5' x 5' metal box. God he stank. "You smell of wee" does not do the honk justice. He stinks like his arguments for anti-progress stink. Vote for some fresh air around here. Vote NO to BO.

AnonymousDecember 4th 2008.

Steady on now Mr Freud. You normally specialising in the phallusisation of the motor car, the old electra complex there, the new oedipus here. Corker and his arguments may stink to high heaven. But is that enough to turn them against progress?

DigDecember 4th 2008.

Rob/ Si, there won't be a congestion charge or any massive amounts of money to spend on public transport in Liverpool. Generally the roads are congestion free, (loads need of resurfacing but that's another matter) and apart from a few sevices the public transport is very good. I'm sure if this rant was on LivCon plenty would disagree but they would be part of the minority using the few poor services or roads regularly. The Liverpool-Manchester East Mids service highlighted on here being 1 of the few bad ones in Liverpool.

SiDecember 4th 2008.

@ Wandsy - Nazi? You obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. I've clearly outlined my reasons for why I believe the "No" vote to be the best option. What are you're reasons for voting yes? Let me guess, you're a student and you believe that your bus fares will come down and you'll have long since f**ked off whilst we real Mancs are left with the debt for decades to come..?

SiDecember 4th 2008.

Sorry, forgot to add - I've no idea who Sean Corker is - I'm a proud Manc who can read between the lines of all the propoganda and make my own informed decisions, thanks,

Roger JonesDecember 4th 2008.

I have two jobs now that I am no longer a councillor - so it is true, even not getting the TIF money creates jobs (for the boys that is).

CYRANO de BERGERACDecember 4th 2008.

The Noses' in front? Oui!

chrissy hot chickDecember 4th 2008.

3 billion pounds for the improvements to the transport system how much as it cost to bail out the banks,or fight wars that dont concern us just to keep 5 cents off a gallaon of petrol in the U.S.

Mrs ManilowDecember 4th 2008.

I'm with the no's

noroomonthebroomDecember 4th 2008.

Teachers and hospital workers based in inner-city Manchester have a stressful enough time as it is. If the c charge goes ahead we will also be paying at least £1000 per year penalty. I live in Rochdale and there will be no direct transport to where I work after the improvements. Most days I take a substantial amount of paperwork and equipment with me. I agree with the improvement proposals. I agree that it would be good for the environment. I agree to contributing towards the cost. Why target a limited number of people who are forced to cross the pay zones?

Cynical JohnDecember 4th 2008.

Call me a cynic (my parents did!!), but didn't we give the banks loads of our money to help tem thru' the bad times and now they're hanging on to it and not using it to re-start the interbank lending?Can you imagine the various supposed transport companies receiving loads of our cash - and then hanging on to it, despite having promised several years before that it would be invested in the sytem?No? Nor me....

Cynical JohnDecember 4th 2008.

Dig says: "Why don't they start improving transport anyway?"Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, etc...

Cynical JohnDecember 4th 2008.

Perhaps I ought to enlarge on that last comment: isn't this what companies should be doing - making healthy profits and re-investing for all our futures?The companies' futures are better provisioned if they re-invest, as they show that they are putting something back for the future good of that company, their customers and the country/region/world in general. This is a very simplistic view of how capitalism works, I know. But what it does do is ensures that failing, here-today-gone-tomorrow companies...er...fail and are gone tomorrow.what doesn't get talked about is that faceless bureaucrats and MPs have inflicted annual fare increases of inflation PLUS 2 r 3% (I forget which) on anyone who has to use...er...public transport.Of course, it should be public and therefore a service, not for-profit (and shareholders, and directors).

anonDecember 4th 2008.

Definately NO! I can't afford to pay £500 a year! I HAVE to drive into work as no buses go close and if I did decide to get a bus then walk the rest of the way (in Manchester's weather!) I work in an area that i'd probably get mugged twice a day in! I would love a better transport system and less traffic on the roads but its the normal people that will pay! People who earn too little won't be charged, people that earn a lot can afford to be charged! what about the rest of us! Or the small businesses that need to drive in and around town for their business! its just another tax!

AnonymousDecember 4th 2008.

As someone who lived in a city that introduced a congestion charge I can tell you all from my own experience that whatever you are promised in terms of low fares, less congestion etc etc will simply not happen. What in fact will happen is that bus, tram and train fares will increase year on year and you will see no improvement in congestion or pollution. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to do more research and listen to those who are already unfortunately enough to live in cities where such schemes are already running. Weather you have a car not this will hit you where it hurts in the pocket ............. please don't be naive VOTE NO!

Stockport new home ownerDecember 4th 2008.

Just received our balloting forms with the WRONG names on!Even though we moved in June and let the relevant people know. Been told I am unable to vote on the TIF and if I use the forms sent to me or if I go to my previous address and use forms sent there, I shall be breaking the Law and WILL be arrested!?!WTF! is this how they are getting the TIF passed?!? Not allowing anyone to vote on it.I saw on the news the other day that the counsel were disappointed with the lack of voters, I believe I know the reason nobody is voting. They are not allowed.If you can vote, VOTE NO! it's a tax on working!

scoteeeDecember 4th 2008.

I received three papers to the previous three addresses.one was my ex'e home, one was a mate i stayed with after the ex thing! and now i live on my own!!!! YAY!! i can vote three times!!!NO.NO.NO!

Artie FufkinDecember 4th 2008.

Vote yes and all you are voting ofr is giving Leese, Berstein and friends a nice fat payday. It all reeks of jobs for the boys and a fine line between job creation and corruption. Ladbrokes have gone very short on a 'no' so I think sense will out over selfish people like Velocity. It will create mass unemplyment and kill the city. Leese and Berstein may lose their reputations but the people will have paid for their mistakes with jobs and livlehoods . They'll be remembered like Authur Scargill, basically an idiot who sold thousands down the river but it was never him who got hit financially.

scoteeeDecember 4th 2008.

The voting process is a joke,there are duplicates being sent out,in my apartment block the postman hasnt even put the ballot papers in the post boxes they were all over the floor!!!not to mention the fact that i have had three??

LesleyDecember 4th 2008.

Velocity - just for the record, I do car share. There are just to many unanswered questions for me to vote yes

Ali McGowanDecember 4th 2008.

Hear, hear Lesley [or is it 'here, here'!!]. I have voted no already for the same reason. I car share too but there are too many unanswered questions, the proposal is not big, brave or robust enough and it's the 'only' choice. It's not like we've been presented with multiple options - either 'take the TIF fund or eff off'. NO NO NO :)

Kevin PeelDecember 4th 2008.

Last couple of days now and it looks like it is going to be a close one. Why it is going to be close I have no idea - I am completely baffled at the idea that anyone wants to vote AGAINST £3bn of public transport investment. Some people...

Sensible oneDecember 4th 2008.

Ok This is my opinion and I am voting NO. What I think should happen is bring in this £3b of public transport system let everyone see how wonderful it can be then have the vote of whether the congestion charge should be brought in, you are technically asking me to vote yes to a product that at the moment is basically rubbish. However if the council is expecting me to change my vote due to the sudden increase of "road works" blocked lanes, buses failing to show, carragies being taken off trains to appear more condensed they have another thing coming, what the council should be doing is improving school buses / transportation as that is where the congestion lies. I never have a problem getting to and from work when the kids are on holiday!!!!I have also been told some information that the council are also preparing for the congestion charge to come in and the amount is for £10.00!!! so just think twice before voting its not as black and white as it seems!

Black puddingDecember 4th 2008.

Oh Volocity, if only I had thought of driving from my house and parking at Bury met and getting the tram to my place of work. Hmmm, now why havnt I dont that?? Ah yes, because I would have to be in the carpark before 6.45am in order to get a place. Its full by 7.00am.(and not always by Met customers) As I need my car for my job I cannot get the tram. Car sharing is also a no go area, for the same reason I mentioned earlier. Both my husband and son do however pay the extortionate amount to use the tram system but they usually end up in Radcliffe car park, but Lo and behold what have Radcliffe started doing this week?? They have decided to now slap tickets on anyone who isnt in a proper parking bay!! This started yesterday and lots of people got stung for £60 including my son who can ill afford this. What a great advert for getting someone to vote yes! If our public transport system ever got to the fantastic stage that it is in Londonthen I can see a fair point for it, but in this city you cannot even go and watch a concert at the MEN on a Sunday and get home by public transport, if they cant sort it now, why should I believe that things will change? Incidentally I have just done a search on First Group website for how to get to Manchester from where I live, guess what, no servife exists. I rest my case !!(which had I been on the tram I wouldnt be able to as there would be no room!!)

Black puddingDecember 4th 2008.

Sensible one, you live up to your name. I too sail to work during school holidays and am indeed looking forward to Christmas for that very thing. Perhaps there should be a ban on smelly people, people who like to talk loudly on their phones, people who like to talk loudly without a phone, buggies, suitcases etc on public transport then there would be more room for us clean folk who like to arrive at our place of work fresh. Bit of a radical approach I know,but it might work!

Artie FufkinDecember 4th 2008.

Kevin Peel, I see another constructive non-point from you. Admit it, you are a bit thick aren't you.Effectively the improvements that would not happen without TIF amount to approx £500-£750m. To pay for it, we're being asked to take a £1,250,000,000 loan without a reliable means to repay unless we put up council taxes. So we have some goods worth £600m, a bill for £1.25bn and it's going to cause mass unemployment. Who is thick enough to vote for that, Kevin?

emma graceDecember 4th 2008.

I think you will find Kevin, that it is a trust issue. In that we don't trust the council as far as we can throw them do actually do with the money what they say they will...if there's no trust, no amount of promises or fancy Yes propaganda will make the slightest bit of difference

senisble oneDecember 4th 2008.

So why can the "180 extra yellow buses" for school's be inplemtent now and vote again in a years time and if I think it has improved I will vote yes I repeat I am not voting on a product without test driving it first!!!!!

senisble oneDecember 4th 2008.

So why can the "180 extra yellow buses" for school's be inplemtent now and vote again in a years time and if I think it has improved I will vote yes I repeat I am not voting on a product without test driving it first!!!!!

sensible oneDecember 4th 2008.

As Emma grace said I dont trust the council, I'll be voting yes to give extra "beer money." it's a done deal and everyone I know including co-workers have voted no, we want changes before we tick the yes box. intrestingly enough Kevin I have just googled you, believed you held a forum on Manchester climate group, you might be intrested to know that the "climate group" travel first class to most of the meetings around the world!! so much for carbon foot print eh!

Artie FufkinDecember 4th 2008.

Oh dear Kevin, 'going getting tough again?

Don't buy it!December 4th 2008.

A definite NO, and this propaganda being spat out by the council just infuriates me more. WE ARE NOT ALL THICK YOU KNOW...

Kevin PeelDecember 4th 2008.

Did I sensible one? Perhaps I have multiple personalities because I don't remember having held any such forum! I just Googled myself too and I'm apparently a hockey player, a speedway racer and a commenter on Practical Fishkeeping Magazine. What a life!

Ali McGowanDecember 4th 2008.

But Kevin, the documents DO NOT state how the 80% is to be measured! It's a load of bunkum. If the proposals stacked up and promised to create a truly world-class system, I might have voted 'yes'. But the overall scheme is crap, full of holes and is blatantly more of a test bed for the government. If it was a serious scheme, we'd have been offered more like £5bn+ (and far less of it as a loan...) and there'd be some more cast iron guarantees (e.g. that the congestion zone won't grow and grow like it did in London, that prices won't rocket 60% like they did in London or that they won't start charging both ways in the rush hour). As I said, too many unanswered questions and NOT enough planned improvements. Meh.

Kevin PeelDecember 4th 2008.

There are guarantees under the existing contracts that the charging zones won't be changed and price increases will be judged by an independent body. The 80% is working on the basis that the new tram line won't be completed until 2017 - pretty much everything else (80%) will be in place by 2013. These are the facts.

Minimum Wage SlaveDecember 4th 2008.

I've got a shiny penny on Velocity coming from Chorlton...Anyone want to give me the odds?

Artie FufkinDecember 4th 2008.

Minimum Wage Slave, I'm not sure but you'' get 20% your bet as long as you travel in peak times, buy a full price ticket and don't have any other concessions. Well worth £1.25bn of anyone's money (except your job will probably have gone because your employer can't afford the £1900 increase in wages)

HDecember 4th 2008.

I'm a Yes voter. And yes, I do live near public transport and use it most days but when we made choices about where to live that was one of them - we didn't just move into a house and 'as luck would have it' a tram stop happened upon us.I feel sympathy for self-employed tradesmen, but won't the congestion charge be tax-deductible like some other costs? Even if it's not, there are always winners and losers in every big political change, that's just the way life is.

Artie FufkinDecember 4th 2008.

H, you sound like those selfish 'yes' ads, "I'm alright jack, i'll vote yes and to hell with the rest of you"

Kevin PeelDecember 4th 2008.

Artie everyone votes on how the changes will affect them. It's just too bad that some drivers can't see beyond their own noses.

Michael McMouldingDecember 4th 2008.

Kevin Peel wrote:.........."It's just too bad that some drivers can't see beyond their own noses"....... That's a horrible accusation against the bus drivers in Manchester if ever I saw one.

Artie FufkinDecember 4th 2008.

Kevin Peel states "Artie everyone votes on how the changes will affect them" No they do not, they vote on what they see as good for the area as a whole. We're not all as selfish as you. In my situation, I'm unlikely to pay, I ride a bike, I take trains and I drive a car (which does not make me a bad person). I want to get around as easily as the next man, however, I do not want to destroy the economy by putting up employment costs, I do not want to force business out onto non-descript business parks on the edge of the M6 etc where everyone has to drive. It's not altruistic, I also want some decent prospects of moving jobs if I fancy it. THe economy cannot survive on everyone working in non-jobs with obscure charities, Manchester needs real businesses successful in a real commercial world.It's all fluffy kittens to you but there is a real world to live in.

Chris PaulDecember 4th 2008.

Noticed one or two comments about Liverpool being congestion free. Graham Stringer made what was actually a rather good observation about this. He suggested that congestion was a good sign. It showed that people put a high value on being somewhere like Manchester. "Just look at Liverpool" he said by way of proof "there's no congestion there". Nothing in this rant indicates that I think GES is anything but a pain in whining against the YES Vote.

AnonymousDecember 4th 2008.

Aaaaagh! Fed up of all of the 'I won't have to pay because' propoganda that is EVERYWHERE! Whilst I wouldn't be affected by the charges at all my sympathies are for the people in my area (Worsley, Salford etc)who don't have the option, nor are ever likely to get the option of decent, on time public transport with or without the congestion charge. As a final point has anyone driven in London lately?? I have and the congestion was no better than before the charge (IMHO). Get out and vote no before it's too late!

AnonymousDecember 4th 2008.

Yet another tax and another ploy by the government to claw back more money. C'mon - we pay road tax, tax on fuel, extortionate amounts for parking, if this goes ahead, we as a small business in Manchester will have to find an additional £20 per day - £7k per year, just to drive into town. Its just money for old rope, people who drive into town at the moment will not opt for public transport because it's so unreliable - if it were easier to get into town in this way they would be travelling in by that method already. I say vote NO god damn it!

BrinDecember 4th 2008.

I dont live in the congestion zone but I dont approve of charging either. On first principles the scheme is scandleous in a way because the congestion represents revenue already being taken for every car that uses it. There has been a exposion in vehicle use over the last 25 years but no money has been put back into road building. Secondly, lets look at the M6 toll road-my office is in Rubery so I have to go down the M5 (so no relief there) and even if you use the toll road you get ito a massive traffic jam at solihul, so why did they bother? As for the advert on how to vote, I believe that was biased as there was subliminal wording suggesting you vote yes (I have complained to the ASA) and I have also wrote to David Cameron who passed it onto the minister of transport who has not replies yet (6 weeks later). In essence, why do the politicians have to get involved in something which should be a strait forward business case for congetion relief? There are only two ways to do this, reduce the cars, or provide enough roadways that allows traffic to segregate to where it wants to go (excluding usual suf around alternate transport). Therefore, if it is a yes vote, every other conurbation will do the same and we will have just introduced another tax on vehicles.The reallity is, half the country pays for the other half to tax it!!! Sorry, buts a big NO for me as the lgic fails.

BrinDecember 4th 2008.

I have looked at the vote 3 times now after hitting the no button and it never seems to change from 60%/40% in favour of 'yes'. Therefore, i'm not convinced this vote is being affected by those using the voting buttons and if it is just a JPEG image, then shame on those who have put it there to affect the vote perhaps!-but hey that the UK for you!

EditorialDecember 5th 2008.

Brin, there have been more than 10,000 votes cast on this poll. You'll have to vote a lot more times to affect a percentage point....more than 100 times.So it is a fair reflection of those who have voted, whether the electorate do the same we'll find out in an hour.

BrinDecember 5th 2008.

Thanks

PeteDecember 5th 2008.

What a shame we'll miss out on improved public transport and such.This made me laugh. I asked the people in my office who voted NO why, their answer? Because they didn't want to pay the charge... They live and work in Wigan?! They'd never have to pay the charge!Idiots.

AnonymousDecember 5th 2008.

And it's a no, obviously the tech savvy people are a bit more intelligent than those without internet

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